Wolf Hall - The Mirror and the Light

[virgocatlover]

Series 2 is confirmed to start Sunday 10th November.

Almost 10 years after the first series, I'm excited to see the third and final novel brought to life.

Years ago I read several of Alison Weir's biographies of the Tudors (one on Henry VIII's wives, one on his heirs, one on the Princes in the Tower and one on Elizabeth I). I've just googled, and apparently she has a podcast series but I have no idea if it is any good.

Alison Weir is considered a bit of a joke, even as a popular historian.

But I too have enjoyed reading her books.

Alison Weir's historical fiction on each of Henry VIII's wives are a fun easy read, but they need to be taken with a massive truckload of salt.

Her most bizarre theory is that Anne of Clevrs may have had a secret baby in her teens, and that Henry guessed as such due to the 'looseness of her belly and breasts'. Her fear over this becoming known is given as the reason for her quickly agreeing to an annulment.

Thank you both so much! Problems of a 90’s education in Scotland - we did the Romans, Vikings and Mary Queen of Scot’s on a cyclical basis and I dropped history at 14. English history was barely given a nod, despite the relevance and overlaps !

Her name wasn’t Rochford. She was born Jane Parker and upon her marriage to Anne Boleyn’s brother George she became Jane Boleyn which remained her name for the rest of her life. When George took on the title Lord Rochford (one of his father’s lesser titles), she became Lady Rochford and then when he was elevated to Viscount Rochford she became Viscountess Rochford, but was still known at court as Lady Rochford. But it wasn’t their surname, just part of their title. Sorry to dash any possible familial connection!

Jane Boleyn, Lady Rochford was only c.37 years old when she died (executed). She didn’t have any children and never remarried after George Boleyn was executed. What a life she had.

I have a different take on that... I always find it interesting talking to an English history teacher about Mary Queen of Scots. Such bias written into the English education system...

as an aside
The no children issue does stack up the possibility that George was indeed gay.

No. There isn't. We use various contemporary sources and we evaluate them, taking content, context and provenance into account. Then we reach a balanced conclusion.
Me and my colleagues have done so for years.

Thsi was more of an informal conversation than what happens in lessons - don't be affronted!

Have a look at House of names
It gives a history of the surname cropping up in Meath and Kilkenny .

Of course I'm affronted. I've spent 35 years teaching History in England and encouraging students to engage with all sides, reach a fair judgment and identify bias. "such bias written into the English education system" was a claim I wanted to refute.
Time out now to calm down now.....

I am loving it and not finding it dreary at all. Damian Lewis is marvellously vulnerable and arrogant, but I am also loving Cromwell's approaches to Dorothea, Mary and Bess Seymour. And his conversations with Jane Seymour. Are these historically accurate?

I liked Lady Rochford better in the first series. Jessica Raine was devilishly catty in a way the current actress is not. The colour blind casting is really clumsy and ruins it a bit for me.

It was more an off the cuff comment that a Scottish poster upthread suggested they somehow didn't know enough history because they didn't know the English Tudors.

I didn't say history teachers were biased. The Gove curriculum, you must know this, aimed to emphasise certain histories as more pivotal. Perhaps its just the particular history teachers I was talking to who gave a particularly anglocentric view of MQOS. My own teaching of history at school did span pretty widely but we did have lots of Scottish history pre aged 14.

I'm an English teacher and happy to acknowledge that the curriculum is skewed and hopelessly unimaginative.

Anyway...

On a different note, the visions mentioned upthread are a central part of the book so did need leaving in, really.

I don't think people in the Tudor era thought of themselves as 'gay' or 'straight' the way people do now.

And even if George did prefer men, he would still have had sex with his wife in the hope of having a son to carry on his earldom.

In the days before there was any sort of fertility treatment, it's not at all surprising that some marriages would remain childless.

I am no fan of Starkey the person but his Six Wives is excellent and really cuts through a lot of the sentiment and myths about the wives, eg Catherine Parr acting as nurse to Henry. A queen would never!

Absolutely not! Henry wouldn't have wanted any woman attending to his intimate bodily needs, let alone his wife the Queen. He had male attendants for that.

Agnes Strickland has a lot to answer for!

Yes, you wouldn't want that Groom of the Stool twiddling his thumbs while your wife did all the hard work.

Jessica Raine was devilishly catty

I can still picture her calm demeanour in this exchange:

Cromwell: Be advised by me - talk to no-one

Lady Rochford: Be advised by me - talk to Mark Smeaton

I hated "Firebrand" because they totally messed around with history. Though Jude Law was great.

I find Mark Rylance too elegant and whimsical. Someone like Danny Dyer would be better.

@readingmakesmehappy I agree, but I am still enjoying his performance. It's so different from the Cromwell I had in my head from the books that that is interesting in itself. I agree he's a bit too reserved and crinkly smiled as well. Ben Miles on stage nailed it for me. He looked like someone you'd have had a rollicking good night out with...which seems more Henry.

Yes, I agree that Ben Miles would have been better casting.

I really love it. I love the visual emphasis of the series and the showing the reality of the familiar painted portraits feel to it
It’s making me reconsider tackling the Mantel books. And makes me really notice how daft other dramatisations can be. Rylance is so great, as have been all the actors of the female characters so far.

I'm enjoying it but perhaps not quite as much as Wolf Hall - the repetitive hat doffing is starting to get to me though! My admiration for Damien Lewis is increasing - he does get across now the more terrifying aspect of Henry, but his diatribe against the unfortunate Lincolnshire peasantry was quite funny.

A thread on here some time ago about books pointed me towards 'The Man on the Donkey' by HFM Prescott, which tells the story of characters caught up in the Pilgrimage of Grace. This is a great novel, apparently admired by Hilary Mantel and well worth seeking out for those who missed the mention the first time around.