Wolf Hall - The Mirror and the Light

[virgocatlover]

Series 2 is confirmed to start Sunday 10th November.

Almost 10 years after the first series, I'm excited to see the third and final novel brought to life.

but 'doing' the politics or religion would have involved a lot of very clumsy exposition from the characters, unless you had a narrator, they would constantly be saying to each other 'so, your grace, in your quest for a son to continue the royal line, you are willing to divorce your wife, even though it will mean a challenge to the power of the Catholic church?'

it would be like someone on EastEnders saying
'i say, chaps, another general election is looming and despite my working class origins I feel estranged from the traditional party of my class, they really don't seem to grasp the issues I, as a small business person, feel are most important to me'

Squeezing a thousand page book into a few hours of TV was a tall order

I agree but to savabely cut any political references, let alone the hugely complicated over lapping Protestants sects is farcical.

Could have done with less time Cromwell mooning around and instead having a grown up conversation about his political and religious beliefs.

Even the scenes of him talking to the dead Cardinal Wolsey never ventured into the battle between the old and the new practice of Christianity. It was some weird male bonding scenario, or idol and fan.

The only "politics" was the sloppily trite, it was just those nasty upper class toffs who had it in for a poor working boy.

Really sad to think that programmes makes think you cant have tv series which actually deal with reality.

There are many programmes that has easily integrated politics etc., into scripts plots.

Even when turning up with a "solution" could have had a few sentences about with this alliance, or whatever its was, the King / England whoever will be making a statement about or commitment to.

There are many films, tv series that have done this.

So bizzare. Would have made sense if the series had been made as a serues for children's television.

The Wolf Hall series couldn't be much further from children's television. It's ironic that you say that because the books, as did the series, in fact assume you are a grown-up and can infer things from oblique or non-expositional dialogue and narrative, and that you have some knowledge of, or at least an ability to understand that, talk about wives and new marriages/religious leaders rising and falling in favour etc ARE, in the context of the time and milieu, 'political references'.

can infer things from oblique or non-expositional dialogue and narrative

Sorry - that is just so not what the issue is.

At that time, not just Henry and his wives, politics and religion was rapidly changing.

How can you infer facts.

Or are you saying the series only works for people who have studied the history of the period in great details.

Are you able to list the political and religious reforms that were passed in the period the series covered?

Without knowing them, nothing has any real context.

Or maybe that is how people think nowadays.

Things just happen because someone "feels" something or they are bored and think I'll do something different.

“Or are you saying the series only works for people who have studied the history of the period in great details.”

I think that is the case with this TV series. It’s only on the second watch after I’d googled, I knew who people were and why they reacted the way they did - it’s really clever, it shows their reactions based on their relations, political aims and what they’re going through, but no it doesn’t tell you what those facts are. Like when they go to Norfolk to ask him to kneel for Thomas More, he mentions Suffolk, his son and his new wife - none of that is explained.

Here was me just enjoying it for what it was and imaging a bit of a roll around with Cromwell. I’ve probably got a lot to learn.

Gosh, you seem quite angry about all this.

I do not understand what your point is when you say, 'Things just happen because someone "feels" something or they are bored and think I'll do something different.'

IMO it is very clear from the TV series that politics and religion was rapidly changing. Off the top of my head, one example: the abbeys are all being raided and torn down and Cromwell is fantasising about which one he'll take as his home.

No, I don't think the series only works for people who have studied the history of the period in great detail. I think it probably does work for them. It also works for someone like me with a lay person's OK but relatively (to an academic/history nut's) shallow understanding of the period. I think it likely works for someone who has somewhat less of an understanding but who can see that when e.g. a new wife is presented to Henry and everyone looks nervous and tense, this is a significant issue. Or that when Henry says to Cromwell, 'Always you with the bad news' and Cromwell looks apprehensive and oppressive music starts up on the soundtrack, Cromwell's status as one of the king's favourites might be changing in a way that is not in Cromwell's interest.

A range of people can enjoy the show without being able to list 'the political and religious reforms that were passed in the period the series covered' or hold forth on 'the hugely complicated overlapping Protestants sects'.

I do get the impression that you might like to do this, to show us all how well-informed you are.

Or are you saying the series only works for people who have studied the history of the period in great details.

I agree with a previous poster that the novels, brilliant though they are, are not very well suited to dramatisation. However, I thought the producers did a great job of evoking the ambience of the books in the limited time they had. I do think you'd probably need to be familiar with the history of the period, and preferably have read the books, to really enjoy the series however. So I guess that is a criticism of sorts, but it's down to the source material just not lending itself very well to television. So much of Mantel's writing focuses on Cromwell's interior world, and that's not easy to translate to the screen.

From what you are writing, it sounds like you might prefer to watch a documentary about the period rather than a drama. There are lots available. Maybe they would be a better use of your viewing time?

I agree but to savabely cut any political references, let alone the hugely complicated over lapping Protestants sects is farcical.

It didn't by any means cut all references to these things.

For me, there were many points which piqued my further interest - most tv dramas don't result in me wanting to do background reading.

DH found it interesting ... it transpired that an odd effect of attending a cathedral school founded by Henry VIII was that they had to celebrate their 'most illustrious and pious lord' on Founders Day but were taught nothing whatever about him or the period! (We followed up the mirror and the light with a documentary on Luther and then rewatched Wolf Hall.)

I rather think the amount of detail about the religious and political factions of the time was pitched about right for a 21st century tv drama audience.

I think that’s fair. I adore the Mantel novels, but once you take out the astonishing way she inhabits Cromwell’s mind and experience, and those moments where she opens out momentarily into a panorama of mythological pre-history or hearsay, or things experienced by an anonymous collective ‘we’, you’re left with a period of Tudor history that’s thoroughly familiar because it’s been dramatised so much, and some familiar characters and situations (though I do love her take on Jane Seymour as snippy and faux-innocent). I think they made an honourable attempt that didn’t quite come off (for me — I know other people think differently).

@Moreshroomsplease

I think the first series was more successful than this one, but maybe that was because they had a more compelling storyline? The story of the dramatic rise and fall of Anne Boleyn never gets old for me, even though it's been done a million times. The lack of a central female character was also a negative in series two, at least for me. As we previously discussed, there was too many scenes involving scruffy men arguing in dark rooms, and Cromwell doffing his hat once every 5 seconds. It was still very good, but there's not really a way to translate Mantel's exploration of Cromwell's inner life to the screen. That's why I think you really have to have read the novels to 'get' it.

I also love Mantel's take on Jane Seymour, and thought the actress did a splendid job.

Well I enjoyed it. It just shows that the BBC CAN do intelligent drama and doesn't need to dumb everything down.

Admittedly I did Tudor history for A level but it was a long time ago and I had to remind myself of some of the characters.

I really enjoyed it! And I haven’t studied the Tudors since I was about 12. It’s encouraged me to find out more about the era which I’ve also enjoyed.

Thought I’d bump this thread to share the latest episode of Not Just The Tudors, which is all about Wolf Hall and how the characters were portrayed. Haven’t listened to it myself yet, but sharing all the same!

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/not-just-the-tudors/id1564113869?i=1000683806094

Really sad news that Mark Rylance's wife has died.

Oh that’s sad. Just read the BBC article about her, she sounds like quite the woman.

Best line from the podcast I linked to:

“We can't not talk about Thomas Howard. He'd feel so slighted. You know, Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk, if an asteroid had hit the earth during the Tudor period and destroyed it, it would be Thomas Howard and the cockroaches floating out into space.

This man just survives. You cannot get rid of him.

He's Rasputin of the Tudor era.”

They preferred Bernard Hill’s Norfolk too.

Seems like an odd time to do a 'Wolf Hall' related podcast, weeks after the series ended!

That is sad, and on his birthday too:

Sad news to hear that. RIP. Lovely radio interview with her and others talking about the music of Wolf Hall:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00253c7?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

I suspect like many podcasts of this type they pre-record a batch of episodes in advance for broadcast, so it may be that this was the earliest they could drop a fresh episode in. They won’t have been able to record until after the show had aired and then they’ve got to find an appropriate expert who is available to record with the .