Our Flag Means Death - Thread 4: Roll up, roll up! Come join us for more pirate obsession!

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Can you believe we are now aboard thread 4? Stick around for chat about this brilliant show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more than a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back and join us 😀

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, three full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But be aware that it's a show that needs time. It’s structured like a theatre production, with a prologue and 3 acts. The 2nd lead arrives (briefly) in episode 3. Episode 4 is the start of Act 1, where the tone changes and the main story begins. You need to give it at least 4 episodes, and from there it just gets better and better. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. And again. And again! If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might well be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5101662-our-flag-means-death-thread-3-its-still-utterly-brilliant-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=137315706

@TriceratopsRocks yes, you’re right Ed makes the decision for Stede when Stede has indicated ‘this can be whatever we want it to be’. It’s the backwards conversation again.

I have to say that this argument bothers me a lot less than Stede's self destruction later. I actually think it’s a good parallel with Ed’s mutiny, and really important for Stede to hit rock bottom. Stede’s full of hubris over Ned Low.

Ed in 202 is actively suicidal whereas Stede is passively suicidal 207. He’s lost Ed, he’s been drinking all day, his crew have begun to desert him, his new ‘friends’ have shown they were mayflies, and he’s got Izzy speaking words of comfort. Similar to Ed goading the crew, Stede goads Zhang. What takes Ed 90+ raids and sailing into a storm etc. to achieve, Stede achieves in half an hour. The visual parallel of Jim with the cannonball and Zheng with the plank is striking. The different reactions of Ed and Stede are also striking. Ed is ready to die. Stede screams for his life. Stede wants to live and clearly cannot in the world of pirates. This is the moment the pirate ‘dream’ ends for him.

You did, baby. 🥰

I actually think it’s a good parallel with Ed’s mutiny, and really important for Stede to hit rock bottom.

I know you are right, but I don't like it!! It's my Steeeeede!! This is the bit where my heart just sinks, every time.

But oh, that Ed photo - so true 😍

Oh, I don’t like it either removes geek hat
Stede! What are you doing? Daft muppet. 😭
207 is so painful. But it makes the 208 reunion all the sweeter.

What takes Ed 90+ raids and sailing into a storm etc. to achieve, Stede achieves in half an hour.

🤣 Absolutely. But Ed had a crew who respected him, one of whom had been with him for years. It took an awful lot for them to 'turn'. Whereas at that point Stede had only 1 day of 'fame' and people he'd mostly just met. You're right though it's the same scenario @MrsJellybee (sorry I forgot to tag you in my previous post).

No, I know. I just think it’s kind of dark humour. Like everyone wants to kill Stede in season 1. And then when he attempts a really passive suicide attempt, it’s super successful in thirty minutes 🤣 And here’s Ed chopping off toes, off his tits on rhino horn, chucking treasure overboard, pointing guns at the crew, shooting Izzy, driving into a storm… Stede basically just touches his sword. It’s classic Stede. 🤣

🤣🤣🤣 poor guy. Now that just makes me want to give him a big hug all over again and tell him "you are adequate". 😁

Although, I can't say I ever actually want to stop giving him a big hug...😆

I just thought. The feeling I get at the end of 2.7 is the same one I get at the end of 1.9, when he walks into Mary's house. It's that utter disbelief mixed with 'no, no, no, no, no - what are you doing??'. Oh Stede...

Nailed it! It’s Stede’s shadow-side. And he does really stupid things.

Ed’s shadow-side is the Kraken. I don’t know what to call Stede’s. It comes out mostly when he’s drunk (or when he sees a red suit 😁) because he’s a depressed drunk rather than a happy one. Obviously he’s not drunk in 1.9 but seriously depressed.

When he slams Doug onto the table with the knife at his throat it’s the same Stede who goes for Zheng. It’s interesting how I react to Stede in his shadow-side. Ed I just want to pick up and put in my pocket. Stede, I kinda want to kill him too. You know, to knock some sense into him 🤣 Tough love .

The red suit! Hah! But I love red suit Stede, he's fun 😁 Also arrogant, confident and a bit of a bitch. Hmm I see what you mean @MrsJellybee 🤣. But I honestly haven't equated red suit-Stede with who I think of as self sabotage-Stede (who returns to Mary and goads Zheng), I think because they have the opposite mood; self sabotage-Stede is a quivering, depressed wreck who panics, has self esteem through the floor and consequently makes terrible choices!

Red suit-Stede is the Stede who punches cupboard-guy in the red suit room and knifes Doug, but he's also the Stede who gets the hostages back from 1.2 "Iggy" and who defeats him in the 1.6 duel. It's that excellent natural reaction mixed with over confidence. They are all examples of "being in the field is my thing...my body just takes over", beautifully illustrating both Stede's actual instincts and in the case of nearly knifing Doug, showing how he doesn't fit in that world any more now he isn't suppressing them.

He's such a mix of over confidence, low self esteem, kindness, bitchiness, thoughtfulness, thoughtlessness, intelligence, lunacy... Hmm, I'm going to think on the different Stedes some more - now don't you agree that that's a lovely occupation for a Saturday 😁😁😁

@TriceratopsRocks I love red suit Stede and he’s certainly not the same as 109 or 207 Stede. He is a too-much-in-his-own-head Stede though. It takes him quite a while to understand the crew’s distress over the red suit and put their feelings first. It’s part of his growth as a captain in that episode. Initially he’s channelling 103 Gentleman Pirate ‘Hi, all!’ arrogance. I mean, it’s gorgeous. But it’s not the best part of Stede. What I love about Stede is how he grows through his less desirable traits and always seems to find a better way in the end. He’s a lovely mixture of hedonism and altruism. I love all the Stedes even the ones that hurt my heart. No one could’ve done it like Rhys.

Ah I must have misunderstood your earlier comment @MrsJellybee. What you say about his not understanding the crews distress over the red suit is one example of what I was thinking of regarding his thoughtlessness. It's the same as when all consideration of oranges went out of the window in 1.7. He absolutely is caring and thoughtful towards the crew, but he also totally ignore issues he knows about because 'shiny'. As in, something (metaphorically) sparkly grabs his attention instead - be that red suit or treasure map or whatever. So it's not thoughtlessness, per se, because he's aware. It's allowing his own wants to take precedence. As you say - that mix of hedonism and altruism. They are both there right from the start, and they're both exaggerated around Ed. That he is willing to give up his life, twice, to 'save' Ed (both in 1.9) yet he'll also happily ignore the orange issue and let the crew get scurvy (because Ed!). He's such a complex character but he's trying and he's learning and he's growing and I love him! And absolutely noone could have played him but Rhys and still have him be so likeable. He's still adorable even when he's being a bitch 🤣

@TriceratopsRocks I’m sure I was being entirely unclear as I half-think a thought sometimes. We talk of how multifaceted Ed is, but I think it’s more outwardly obvious with him. Plus he names his personas. But Stede is so complex too and it’s easy to overlook.

I think David said somewhere that Stede doesn’t know his own power, and he doesn’t realise how much his decisions help or harm people. I mean, if I leave Ed it’s fine because I’m a nobody and he’s the most famous pirate who ever lived. And no one has ever wanted me before anyway. And if I keep the suit, it’s fine. I don’t really have any influence over the crew, I don’t feel like their captain… I think his hedonism coupled with low-self esteem (an odd mix) which makes him tunnel-visioned. He’s the ultimate aesthete. Stede needs to learn the impact his behaviour has on people. He doesn’t mean to harm. He thinks he’s insignificant when in fact people are hanging on his every word and looking to him for guidance. I mean Blackbeard met Stede and said ‘He is who I want to be’ before ‘He is who I want’. He’s basically an 18th century influencer and doesn’t know it.

That's exactly it! 👏 His low self esteem means he doesn't recognise his impact on others. I do like that David Jenkins comment - I'd forgotten it. Another example is when he goes back to Mary. As a widow she had independence, agency and financial control. Stede's return took away that agency and power in a real and tangible sense - it wasn't just him being in the way - it returned her to a subservient position and removed her control over her finances, her house, her whole future. No wonder she vomited over her tea! But it would never have crossed Stede's mind - I suppose as much because he is a man of his times, rather than because he's Stede. He was running away, going back to 'do his duty', not seeing that he was wrecking things for Ed, for Mary and for the crew. And we are back to where we started - Stede makes a decision because of his low self esteem which removes choice from others and as a result causes problems and unhappiness. Exactly like Ed in 2.7.

Stede's a great character. Although the show didn't explore it all that much, he's got the noblesse oblige of wealth. Some stuff he just doesn't think about as he's never had to (the oranges, Mary's position) but he's got the trauma of inherited wealth too (the dad, the bullying, the expectations).

We can't have all this Stede chat without some pics 😁

❤️ 💙 💜 💖

Those are lovely.

I tried to pick different Stedes from the limited selection on my phone. But it wouldn't let me look for others after adding those three. Here are some more!

And more 😁😁😁😁 (I had to include my favourites!)

I definitely need to get a better selection on my phone. Most of my pics are just on my PC. It's probably a good job though, tbf, as otherwise I'd never get anything done and I'd be ogling them all day 🤣 More than I already am, that is!

Oh, that’s such a good point @Phineyj. It’s all so Mr Darcy. Stede isn’t cut out for noblesse oblige in the traditional sense. Largely because of the duty of compulsory heterosexuality. I mean, Mary and he have done their duty (jeez…), but we end up with a situation where the children’s father runs away because he’s been forced into a box he can’t cope with. Discomfort in a married state. Also, Ed can never fit into that world. The attacking of the wedding party and imprinting his own image over the bride topper is highly symbolic. Because Ed can’t have Stede in the traditional sense.

This will always crack me up 😆

Oh that is pure Louis Quatorze on that throne. Wonderful!

It's not only that he can't have Stede in that world, but the divided, unequal society meant people like him never had a chance. It never mattered how intelligent, creative, talented, brilliant he was. He could never succeed legitimately in a world with 'haves' and 'have nots'. His mum reinforced that. Yet although he resented that world (and indeed, the purpose of piracy as a whole is to disrupt it, to take from it), he jumped at the chance to be part of it in 1.5 and genuinely wanted to learn to fit in, to gain approval. Until he realised he never would. That wedding party was perpetuating the miserable cycle, and it represented an awful lot of different emotional baggage for Ed.

Oh wow! I love that one 🤣 Taika's expression especially.