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Telly addicts

Who is watching Doctor Who tonight

886 replies

Firefly2009 · 25/11/2023 17:13

And if you've now seen it, what are your thoughts?

I'm predicting I will love it no matter what. But look forward to discussing it.

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DogsAkimbo · 27/11/2023 16:39

pickledandpuzzled · 27/11/2023 16:18

They need to be careful, that man brain being shared into Donna’s lady brain. I’m sure my mum said you shouldn’t do that unless you’re married!

I heard behind the bike sheds that it can get you pregnant but only if you’re wearing a girl skirt!

Angrycat2768 · 27/11/2023 16:48

DogsAkimbo · 27/11/2023 16:39

I heard behind the bike sheds that it can get you pregnant but only if you’re wearing a girl skirt!

Of course! Who needs The Pill when you can just wear trousers? I need to tell my friend who never wears skirts or dresses that I'm very angry with her for pretending to be pregnant 3 times!

Pinkbonbon · 27/11/2023 17:23

Forget pregnancy, you could catch...the dreaded cooties!

GordoStevensMustache · 27/11/2023 19:03

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 15:21

TBH I'm half-surprised by how positive the response to this episode has been on places like trans Twitter.

When I was chatting to DP after the episode ended, I said I was 50/50 as to whether the online trans community would absolutely adore it, or whether they'd instead pick up on some of the hamfisted, at least 5 years out of date attempts at trans inclusion, and really take against it. I was maybe leaning towards the latter, but I was wrong — I've only seen maybe one trans activist make any criticism at all. I'm slightly surprised that the reaction seems almost universally positive, because the episode doesn't seem to fit modern discourse — there were several elements that I've seen protested elsewhere.

Things like the fact that the story suggested there was an "explanation", a reason for Rose ending up as non-binary/trans, as though there needs to be an identifiable cause (i.e. something like, having inherited Timelord energy, because Timelords are both male and female, or some kind of similar mush — "We're binary. She's not, because the Doctor's male… and female. And neither. And more."). I've definitely seen people argue that looking for or identifying possible causes of someone being trans is transphobic.

And the Meep pronoun scene was clumsy and attention-drawing in exactly the way I've heard many trans people say they don't want that kind of situation managed. Also, possibly, the confusing mashing together of an implied binary-trans character — played by a transwoman AFAIK — with suddenly starting to talk about the character's non-binaryness the moment that being non-binary is convenient to the story, as if, meh, it's all the same thing. Though perhaps some would say that of course there's nothing to say that a male, feminine-presenting person who's had surgery to appear female, has chosen a feminine name, and requests feminine pronouns can't identify as non-binary.

Whatever, the whole thing felt to me like it was exactly the kind of thing that would attract complaints that it was some old, out-of-touch, white cis gay guy's well-meaning but problematic take on something he doesn't understand.

Also, if I were trans I'm pretty sure I'd be cringing hard at the whole thing where the world is saved through the power of trans, or whatever the hell that ending was supposed to be. I'm a woman, and really dislike the feeling of being humoured and pandered to by things that misguidedly attempt to give the impression of redressing the balance of historic sexism — not by portraying us as full human beings, but by making out that women are a bit special and different from normal humans, and actually intrinsically better than men in some weird, blanket way (although not one that is actually valued), like this bit: "We know everything. Thanks. And you know nothing. It's a shame you're not a woman any more, cos she'd have understood. We've got all that power - but there is a way to get rid of it. Something a male-presenting Time Lord will never understand. Just let it go." Well, I'm a woman, and I didn't have a clue what that was all about. It's like how I cringe when people joke about how men are terrible at multitasking, or how if women ruled the world there would be no wars because we're lovely and kind and talk things through, or whatever bollocks.

Having an ASD diagnosis, I get a similar vibe from things that attempt to be inclusive in that uncomfortable, OTT way that feels like, "Let's celebrate autism, and have autistic characters who save the day through their autism, because autism is a special power that means an autistic person can do things that a normal person could never do, and that will make everyone realise that autistic people are sooper special — and because they're useful to us, that actually makes them worthwhile human beings rather than just a burden, woo, look how progressive we are" 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

There are some dissenting voices on the doctor who subreddit. They make the valid point, why can't Rose just be trans because she is. Rather than because of external factors.

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 19:07

GordoStevensMustache · 27/11/2023 19:03

There are some dissenting voices on the doctor who subreddit. They make the valid point, why can't Rose just be trans because she is. Rather than because of external factors.

That's fair enough.

TBH, the main place I looked was Twitter, and mostly in the first couple of hours following broadcast, before people have had time to get together and pick a thing to bits. So I guess through a combination of timing and platform I was mostly seeing brief, off-the-cuff first impressions.

GordoStevensMustache · 27/11/2023 19:12

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 19:07

That's fair enough.

TBH, the main place I looked was Twitter, and mostly in the first couple of hours following broadcast, before people have had time to get together and pick a thing to bits. So I guess through a combination of timing and platform I was mostly seeing brief, off-the-cuff first impressions.

Yeah, I find it interesting that even trans people are finding it a bit odd and overdone. And nobody seems to like the bit where they tell the doctor he's a man, so he wouldn't understand. (Or something, I haven't watched it) lots of cries of misandry.

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 19:22

GordoStevensMustache · 27/11/2023 19:12

Yeah, I find it interesting that even trans people are finding it a bit odd and overdone. And nobody seems to like the bit where they tell the doctor he's a man, so he wouldn't understand. (Or something, I haven't watched it) lots of cries of misandry.

I don't like it, but not particularly because I think it's "misandry" (though it may be false, reflexive "misandry" done in the misguided belief that this crap somehow counters millennia of sexism disadvantaging women) — more that it positions women as homogeneous and not diverse. That, just through being a woman, someone would understand this concept, because unlike men who are diverse human beings with different lives and experiences, women all understand the same things. Like how when you're a member of such-and-such a group, your actions are taken as representative of your group, whereas a white straight middle-class guy in his home country who's an incompetent dick is representative only of himself.

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 19:35

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 19:22

I don't like it, but not particularly because I think it's "misandry" (though it may be false, reflexive "misandry" done in the misguided belief that this crap somehow counters millennia of sexism disadvantaging women) — more that it positions women as homogeneous and not diverse. That, just through being a woman, someone would understand this concept, because unlike men who are diverse human beings with different lives and experiences, women all understand the same things. Like how when you're a member of such-and-such a group, your actions are taken as representative of your group, whereas a white straight middle-class guy in his home country who's an incompetent dick is representative only of himself.

To add to that, I'm sure someone has already picked up on this, but the same kind of mentality comes through in:

"I don't know who I am any more."

"Well, you look like the Doctor to me."

"Well, exactly. The one in the skinny suit. After that, I wear a bow tie. After that, I'm a Scotsman. After that, I'm a woman."

Yes, I know, there's only one (mainline) female doctor, so that's technically enough as a distinguishing characteristic, but the male doctors get actual descriptors. The woman is only woman. No other interesting differences or personal quirks at all. Just woman.

Traceyislivid · 27/11/2023 21:27

Do you think the whole ‘women can let it go’ bs was a dig at women that they should let the whole trans argument go and be more accepting? I feel suddenly really offended by it. It’s so patronising and bs in such a simplistic level. I am really annoyed by it now I see it.

InMySpareTime · 27/11/2023 21:48

A much less clunky way to resolve the metacrisis issue would have been to say that it needed not a Time Lord mind, but two hearts, and that pregnant women contain two hearts (mother and baby) so that was heart enough.

MelsMoneyTree · 27/11/2023 22:15

Traceyislivid · 27/11/2023 21:27

Do you think the whole ‘women can let it go’ bs was a dig at women that they should let the whole trans argument go and be more accepting? I feel suddenly really offended by it. It’s so patronising and bs in such a simplistic level. I am really annoyed by it now I see it.

I don't think so. It was more about men holding on to power even when it's corrupting or evil - but women not wanting to hold on to power for power's sake so they can let it go if that serves them better.

I thought all the 'messaging' was so shoehorned in that it was laughable.

The trans actor is too old for the role. Interestingly, they seemed a better actor in Heartstopper so I don't know why they seemed so rubbish in Doctor Who - maybe the writing let them down. Or maybe it's because Heartstopper is generally sunny and positive, and Doctor Who needed a wider range of emotion.

Apparently RTD had a real rant at journalists at the screening - saying all the right wing media would criticise it etc. So at least he was owning his political agenda-pushing. Tbh I was really surprised he got carte blanche to come back after all the revelations of what happened when he was showrunner before eg John Barrowman, Noel Clarke - Christopher Ecclestone saying it was an awful environment to work in.

I hated DT's new costume - fastening one button and having the suit straining looked shit imo. But I did like seeing Donna again. I'm going to give the second episode a try next week.

Coolstorysis · 27/11/2023 22:57

It just didn't feel grounded, with room to breathe to me. Which to me was always a plus for RTD who. The acting felt off from everyone except Sylvia, it's like RTD took all of his worst traits and wove them into an episode akin to "let's kill Hitler". Maybe he is losing his touch, which is a shame as I have enjoyed most of the things he has done Sad.

Have seen spoilers (leaks which might not be accurate) for the third episode and it's very Hmm. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably still watch ever hopeful, but it wasn't the barnstorming joyous celebration after the direness of Chibnall I expected. In fact, if it continues like this I might be forced to reassess Chibnall haha. Which is ironic because Chibnall made me realise that even if I didn't enjoy some of Moffat stuff, at least he was competent.

Rose I would say was on a par with Ryan in the wooden acting stakes. I mean come the fuck on, you meet an alien in an alleyway and zero reaction, the line "Mum there's a spaceship" was delivered with the enthusiasm of a wet dishcloth. Even Tennant was all over the place, I get he was trying to differentiate from 10 but bleurgh. Also Donna was obtuse without any of the charm (has she had her teeth done? She looks odd, not just older, no shade just wondering).

I don't even care about the trans, pronouns, binary/non binary bollocks, there have been more egregious "eeh what now" moments, but the basics weren't there. Hopefully Ncuti's run can be a fresh start without all the baggage (if the leaks are to be believed that's a big no)

Sorry, rant.

I'm pretty disappointed though, have been looking forward to this for a long time.

cantsleepinbed · 27/11/2023 23:02

Coolstorysis · 27/11/2023 22:57

It just didn't feel grounded, with room to breathe to me. Which to me was always a plus for RTD who. The acting felt off from everyone except Sylvia, it's like RTD took all of his worst traits and wove them into an episode akin to "let's kill Hitler". Maybe he is losing his touch, which is a shame as I have enjoyed most of the things he has done Sad.

Have seen spoilers (leaks which might not be accurate) for the third episode and it's very Hmm. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably still watch ever hopeful, but it wasn't the barnstorming joyous celebration after the direness of Chibnall I expected. In fact, if it continues like this I might be forced to reassess Chibnall haha. Which is ironic because Chibnall made me realise that even if I didn't enjoy some of Moffat stuff, at least he was competent.

Rose I would say was on a par with Ryan in the wooden acting stakes. I mean come the fuck on, you meet an alien in an alleyway and zero reaction, the line "Mum there's a spaceship" was delivered with the enthusiasm of a wet dishcloth. Even Tennant was all over the place, I get he was trying to differentiate from 10 but bleurgh. Also Donna was obtuse without any of the charm (has she had her teeth done? She looks odd, not just older, no shade just wondering).

I don't even care about the trans, pronouns, binary/non binary bollocks, there have been more egregious "eeh what now" moments, but the basics weren't there. Hopefully Ncuti's run can be a fresh start without all the baggage (if the leaks are to be believed that's a big no)

Sorry, rant.

I'm pretty disappointed though, have been looking forward to this for a long time.

I'm with you.

Though, I think the writing was at its best under Moffat. Even when RTD was show runner, Moffat's episodes were top tier and stood out above the rest.

Coolstorysis · 27/11/2023 23:14

I thought Moffat and RTD just had different strengths tbh, RTDs dialogue and emotional beats were mostly great and Moffat was great at the complicated plotting, they both worked together well. I loved and hated different bits of both. RTD seems from this to have lost his mind tbh, I mean I was such a fan girl, I have read the extended version of the writers tale more than once haha. I forgave him the cheesy shit and Moffat his weird tropes and river song.

I absolutely adore turn left, such a good ep, I even like love and monsters Blush

Tbh I wasn't that keen on it's a sin tbh, felt like a shallow theme park ride based on the 80s Aids crisis, but I get that might be a contentious view.

Wtf am I going to be a fan of if it doesn't buck up.

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2023 00:40

DumboHimalayan · 27/11/2023 19:22

I don't like it, but not particularly because I think it's "misandry" (though it may be false, reflexive "misandry" done in the misguided belief that this crap somehow counters millennia of sexism disadvantaging women) — more that it positions women as homogeneous and not diverse. That, just through being a woman, someone would understand this concept, because unlike men who are diverse human beings with different lives and experiences, women all understand the same things. Like how when you're a member of such-and-such a group, your actions are taken as representative of your group, whereas a white straight middle-class guy in his home country who's an incompetent dick is representative only of himself.

It was a line written by a man which has made women look bad. How can it be misandry? They are the words of a man. It's a male view of women and what he thinks they should say. If there is a problem it's his sexism shining through.

But of course a fictional woman has got the blame rather than the male writer. Cos rule one: Women are responsible for what men do.

DumboHimalayan · 28/11/2023 00:45

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2023 00:40

It was a line written by a man which has made women look bad. How can it be misandry? They are the words of a man. It's a male view of women and what he thinks they should say. If there is a problem it's his sexism shining through.

But of course a fictional woman has got the blame rather than the male writer. Cos rule one: Women are responsible for what men do.

I'm not sure why you're accusing me of blaming a fictional woman Hmm I've seen men do the same false-misandry type of thing before plenty of times, thinking they're making themselves look all modern and that everyone will think they're great.

pickledandpuzzled · 28/11/2023 07:48

I was gutted it got so bad with Jodie. I wanted her doctor to be amazing. Both (adult) sons stopped watching, though.

I hope Ncuti works well. It would be awful if we ended up with people think we need a white bloke for the Dr to work.

TeenDivided · 28/11/2023 07:57

I didn't like the Jodie episodes. Not because of her, she was fine, but because of the constant preaching messages about whatever.
I don't watch Dr Who for preaching, I watch it for adventure, plot twists, ingenious saving the day/world, humour.

Ginmonkeyagain · 28/11/2023 08:01

I think one of the issues with the last Doctor (and indeed the most recent episode) is the Doctor is meant to be fun but they are also dangerous, selfish, emotionally immature and otherworldly. They aren't the new best friend or gang leader. The teialers for Sturday where the Doctor describes Donna as his "best friend" is odd. We know the Doctor walks away from companions without a second glance.

Matt Smith got that the most right out of all the modern incarnations I think.

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2023 08:09

DumboHimalayan · 28/11/2023 00:45

I'm not sure why you're accusing me of blaming a fictional woman Hmm I've seen men do the same false-misandry type of thing before plenty of times, thinking they're making themselves look all modern and that everyone will think they're great.

Edited

I wasn't blaming you personally. I'm blaming the absoluete clowns who are saying this.

Angrycat2768 · 28/11/2023 13:03

describes Donna as his "best friend" is odd. We know the Doctor walks away from companions without a second glance.

Especially given the writers ( and Tennants Doctor's) obsession with Rose.

ZeldaFighter · 28/11/2023 13:07

BlueBox81 · 27/11/2023 09:32

I thought Rose being trans worked well with the storyline and the recent change of the doctor from male to female. Yes, Rose is biologically male but she has a woman's brain essentially, so is both (as is the Doctor). I thought the 'educating' us on pronouns was condescending and unnecessary. That bit of dialogue was really clumsily written, but other than that I think Rose being trans made sense to the plot and trans people do exist so no reason for them not to feature on TV shows as well as biological female teenagers. There can be both.

A transwoman is a biological male. They have a man's brain and a man's body. They can adopt feminine social stereotypes and styling and the majority of people have no problem with that. They are, however, still male and so should stick to male toilets, changing rooms, sports categories, prisons, mental health wards, hospital wards and domestic violence refuges.

Angrycat2768 · 28/11/2023 13:10

cantsleepinbed · 27/11/2023 23:02

I'm with you.

Though, I think the writing was at its best under Moffat. Even when RTD was show runner, Moffat's episodes were top tier and stood out above the rest.

I agree. Moffat was my favourite writer. He wrote proper Sci fi stuff rather than romance/ social commentary with a few aliens thrown in and challenged the audience to work things out. RTD stuff was never in the same league where you wondered how on earth anyone who wasnt a complete psychopath could possibly invent something so horrific. The Vashta Narada, The Silence, the Angels. They were proper horrifying monsters.

BlueBox81 · 28/11/2023 15:21

I never said trans women should be allowed into all those places. I just said the character of Rose worked well in terms of the plot!

DwightDFlysenhower · 28/11/2023 15:35

I liked Moffat's individual episodes, but thought when he was showrunner the individual episode stories got a bit lost in favour of the whole-series storyline.

(And if you have to go on Doctor Who Confidential after every episode to explain what has happened, you've probably made it a bit too complicated!)