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Telly addicts

Louise Woodward The Killer Nanny. did she do it?

790 replies

HeckinMiffed · 09/01/2022 21:08

This was such a huge case when I was younger. Anyone else watching?
I always thought she didnt deliberately kill the baby.

OP posts:
Sparklingbrook · 12/01/2022 13:31

This from Wiki (so maybe not a good source TBF)

The lead counsel at Woodward's trial, and the architect of her medical and forensic defense, was Barry Scheck, co-founder of the Innocence Project. Scheck was hired and paid for by her employer EF Education First's Cultural Care Au Pair.

TaraRhu · 12/01/2022 13:36

I think she did it but not on purpose. I think the couple and the au pair agency are also responsible. Who leaves kids if that age with an inexperienced 19 year old? They wanted cheap labour. They were both doctors, surrey they could afford an actual nanny or nursery.

GruffaloSolja · 12/01/2022 14:23

I remember this case from the time. I think I was about 12, and it was the first time I can recall a court case being live broadcast on TV. My mum had been following it and she was convinced Louise was innocent. She though for whatever reason Matthew's older brother was responsible. Having watched this documentary, I think Louise did it. I think she did it in a moment of anger and frustration and immediately regretted it. I also think that she was completely out of her depth working as an Au pair. She'd clearly gone to Boston expecting this amazing social experience and instead found herself stuck inside looking after two young children. Louise probably thought by going to the States that she was finally going to get some freedom, only to find herself restricted with rules and curfews imposed by the Eappens. I imagine she thought she was going to the USA to experience the culture not because it was her great vocation in life to care for children. The reason I think she is guilty apart from the afore mentioned is because she actually admitted to shaking Matthew and demonstrated how she did it. I feel she minimised the force of it. And Matthew had detached retinas, which as I recall from the recent trial and conviction of Emma Tustin, that Arthur Labinjo Hughes had a detached retina and that could have only come from being deliberately and violently shaken and struck against a hard surface. It couldn't have happened any other way. I mean she had a motive. I don't think she had a fair trial. It was definitely a case of trial by media. I don't think the Eappens come out of this very well either. They seem to have made some poor decisions regarding their child care choices. I'm not blaming them btw, but they hired an inexperienced teenager when what they actually needed was a nanny. Both the Eappens and Louise knew she was struggling but instead of sending her back to England they let her continue.

Sparklingbrook · 12/01/2022 14:27

The lack of bruising does seem to cast doubt on quite how violently he was shaken.

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 12/01/2022 14:35

In what context did she admit to shaking him,was it through frustration or to elicit a response ?

x2boys · 12/01/2022 14:37

Also Matthew was a big baby ,it would have taken some strength to shake him .

theNumbersStation · 12/01/2022 14:39

The statements of the parents troubled me a bit.

She said that she was distraught at the thought that the hands meant to care for the baby beat him.

He hoped that despite his hatred of l’s actions, she find the peace of god in her life again.

If someone had killed my child, I would say that. If I believed that someone killed my child, my victim statement would call them for the monster they were.

In the clip seen, they didn’t say that. I would be screaming it from the rooftops.

The words they used seemed to be very carefully chosen.

And Louise maintained her innocence and said she wasn’t responsible for his death and nor did she hurt him.

I do believe that she had the misfortune to be there when he deteriorated. It is possible that her actions that morning made things worse. It is possible that her actions that morning would not have changed the tragic outcome.

Something happened but what we will probably never know.

But the judge got it right. And the judge corrected the mistake that the jury made.

The older juror did say that it wasn’t murder but that Louise had done ‘something’ and therefore wasn’t innocent. So they went with murder.

Both jurors said their faith in the legal system was damaged. What damaged it was their decision in the first place. They knew they were wrong but did it because they had no middle ground.

The celebrations in the pub were awful.

A baby died. I think a lot of people forgot that when they got caught up in the drama.

I understand the civil lawsuit to prevent LW from profiting. Why not go for damages?

And I’m sorry but no one with any sense would destroy a tape with those sort of allegations on them on one of the biggest stories of their career.

Too many questions and not enough answers.

GastroNuisance · 12/01/2022 14:42

I've read the whole thread and I must say @mathanxiety has provided some real insight into the differences between US and U.K. Thankyou!

We had an aupair a few years ago and it was a fabulous experience. She was 19. Our kids were in school (6&8) and she just did school runs and snacks afterwards. That was it. She loved her time here.

I remember trying to recruit an aupair (pre brexit) and registering with some agencies. They were shit. The most frustrating thing was that we have 2 dogs. The AP wouldn't need to walk them but they're part of the household.

One of the candidates we got sent didn't like animals. That's a major red flag. Why would anyone think we could be a good fit? This leads me to believe that LWs agency (as others have said) were just filling names and spaces. Nothing more. Just the bare minimum.

It was a disaster waiting to happen.

Also - even if the parents didn't hurt him they were certainly guilty of failure to protect him. That contract was really chilling. After so many problems why would you keep going hoping things would improve?

Sparklingbrook · 12/01/2022 14:44

@MrsPelligrinoPetrichor

In what context did she admit to shaking him,was it through frustration or to elicit a response ?
I took it to mean she was shaking him as he was unresponsive, but I might be completely wrong. The prosecution seemed to suggest she was frustrated as he was crying but did LW herself say that? He wasn't crying if he was unresponsive. For a trial very few details of that day were heard, it seemed to start with the 911 call.
GruffaloSolja · 12/01/2022 15:01

@x2boys

Also Matthew was a big baby ,it would have taken some strength to shake him .
Would it have though? He was still a baby at the end of the day even if he was a big one. He wouldn't have been able to defend himself had someone decide to pick him up and hurt him.
x2boys · 12/01/2022 15:18

I just remember when my boys babies by eight months I could ,nt carry them for any length of time let alone shake them vigourasly for several minutes .

mathanxiety · 12/01/2022 15:24

No matter how big a baby is, chartwise, the head is going to be vulnerable to serious injury. This is because babies' necks are relatively weak and the head is always relatively large and heavy.

mathanxiety · 12/01/2022 15:27

It is eye-wateringly expensive here. Your DS should definitely talk to the loan providers and get the best deal he can-we’re currently paying less than 1% interest on student loans due to a good repayment record.

This is his best deal. The entire amount plus interest will have to be paid off. Hence the life insurance. DS will be a small economic system all unto himself once he gets working. Doctors in the US are putting the kids of many other people through university.

Sparklingbrook · 12/01/2022 15:27

Well you have the prosecution's re-enactment of the shaking (and they claimed slamming his head onto something hard) and then LW's. They are very different. I think that's where all the 'Where you there??' shouting came from from Barry Scheck.

gunnersgold · 12/01/2022 15:32

Those who don't think she did it , who do you think did hurt him?

Sparklingbrook · 12/01/2022 15:39

I have no idea what actually happened. There seem to be a lot of possible options including it being LW, not all of them completely explored or investigated.

Kanaloa · 12/01/2022 15:40

@gunnersgold

Those who don't think she did it , who do you think did hurt him?
I don’t necessarily think she didn’t hurt the child. I think there were failings on every front and unfortunately we just simply don’t and can’t know what happened to the poor baby. Unless someone comes out and tells us. Perhaps he was left unattended and his toddler brother hurt him. Perhaps she hurt him accidentally but didn’t feel she could say this. Maybe his parents did it, maybe she did it out of frustration. Nobody knows.
Kanaloa · 12/01/2022 15:41

That’s the thing when people say outright ‘oh she did it.’ Unless you were there you just don’t know.

mathanxiety · 12/01/2022 16:04

I had a friend who did a NNEB course straight from school, 2 year course to qualify as a nursery nurse, she finished college on a Friday and flew to America the following day and was a nanny for 2 years with a family with 2 young children.

The vast, vast majority of nannies on the market in the US then and now have no such training. Most have 'on the job', long term experience of babysitting by the time they leave high school and embark on their careers. Or they are early years teachers between jobs, again, with a long list of references from babysitting, and not just certificates. A two year course would be seen in the US as equivalent of an Associates degree in a community college, and not necessarily proof of any sort of sustained interest in taking care of children.

The au pair rules were changed in 1997 to mandate 200 documented hours of hands-on childcare experience for au pairs seeking to work in the US. This is a history many, many American teenagers applying for nanny jobs could easily provide. The US government prioritised hands on experience as opposed to certification for au pairs.

There were alternatives. She wasn't in Hollywood or NYC. These people wanted childcare on the cheap and you get what you pay for. They could have employed someone like my friend, not an aupair, not a Norland nanny.

The vast, vast majority of childcare in the US is low paid work, and the vast, vast majority of children emerge from the experience perfectly fine, physically healthy, well socialised, and definitely not dead. There are many, many conscientious, decent women (and some men) out there turning up every day and giving of their best with other people's children.

The Eappens did not prioritise their children and the fact is they chose their careers, they chose when to have children. If they were a couple of teenagers on minimum wage using cheap childcare they would get much more vitriol

This is a gross slander of the Eappens. It is a slander that was leveled at Deborah in particular when the case made the news, and it is not fair. Deborah worked three days a week and came home for lunch frequently on days she worked. She chose to take the mommy track. She had spent four years in university, four years in medical school and four or five years training in ophthalmology after that. Assuming no gaps, she would have been in her 30s when she had her children.

You don't have an unlimited biological window in which to have children. You want them to have the benefit of your energy and enthusiasm when you are relatively young.

This condemnation of the Eappens and the choices they made is appalling.
They did not cause the death of their child through their choice of childcare employee.
Somebody inflicted injuries on baby Matthew that caused his death.

The vast, vast majority of young professional couples in the US make exactly the same childcare choice the Eappens did - they hire someone young, someone who represents herself as able and willing and enthusiastic about working with babies and small children - and their babies do not end up dead.

What is happening here is victim blaming at its most vile. A woman dares to keep working in a professional capacity after having a child, and is on trial forever afterwards when it all goes wrong for her child.

www.nytimes.com/1997/10/24/us/a-murder-trial-about-more-than-a-nanny.html

...the reaction to Matthew's death among some Americans appears to fit with a lingering unwillingness among them to accept the idea of working mothers, said Stephanie Coontz, professor of history and family studies at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., and author of ''The Way We Really Are: Coming to Terms with America's Changing Families'' (Basic Books).

Two-thirds of American mothers of children under 6 work, Ms. Coontz said. Yet instead of creating a national child care policy, she said, ''we say to individual women, 'You go out there blindfolded and get the best child care you can, and if you can't, we're going to blame you.''

The criticism of Dr. Eappen prompted one Boston Globe reader to write in outrage that when welfare mothers stayed home with their children, they were branded lazy; when working mothers put their children into day care, they were accused of ''dumping'' them in germ-infested settings; and when they used au pairs, they were accused of abandoning their children to inexperienced teen-agers.

Cameleongirl · 12/01/2022 16:19

@mathanxiety

It is eye-wateringly expensive here. Your DS should definitely talk to the loan providers and get the best deal he can-we’re currently paying less than 1% interest on student loans due to a good repayment record.

This is his best deal. The entire amount plus interest will have to be paid off. Hence the life insurance. DS will be a small economic system all unto himself once he gets working. Doctors in the US are putting the kids of many other people through university.

I know the entire amount will have to be repaid. I’m saying that the interest rate can often be renegotiated after a few years of regular repayments. Our current account interest rate is less than 1%.
ancientgran · 12/01/2022 16:30

@mathanxiety

I had a friend who did a NNEB course straight from school, 2 year course to qualify as a nursery nurse, she finished college on a Friday and flew to America the following day and was a nanny for 2 years with a family with 2 young children.

The vast, vast majority of nannies on the market in the US then and now have no such training. Most have 'on the job', long term experience of babysitting by the time they leave high school and embark on their careers. Or they are early years teachers between jobs, again, with a long list of references from babysitting, and not just certificates. A two year course would be seen in the US as equivalent of an Associates degree in a community college, and not necessarily proof of any sort of sustained interest in taking care of children.

The au pair rules were changed in 1997 to mandate 200 documented hours of hands-on childcare experience for au pairs seeking to work in the US. This is a history many, many American teenagers applying for nanny jobs could easily provide. The US government prioritised hands on experience as opposed to certification for au pairs.

There were alternatives. She wasn't in Hollywood or NYC. These people wanted childcare on the cheap and you get what you pay for. They could have employed someone like my friend, not an aupair, not a Norland nanny.

The vast, vast majority of childcare in the US is low paid work, and the vast, vast majority of children emerge from the experience perfectly fine, physically healthy, well socialised, and definitely not dead. There are many, many conscientious, decent women (and some men) out there turning up every day and giving of their best with other people's children.

The Eappens did not prioritise their children and the fact is they chose their careers, they chose when to have children. If they were a couple of teenagers on minimum wage using cheap childcare they would get much more vitriol

This is a gross slander of the Eappens. It is a slander that was leveled at Deborah in particular when the case made the news, and it is not fair. Deborah worked three days a week and came home for lunch frequently on days she worked. She chose to take the mommy track. She had spent four years in university, four years in medical school and four or five years training in ophthalmology after that. Assuming no gaps, she would have been in her 30s when she had her children.

You don't have an unlimited biological window in which to have children. You want them to have the benefit of your energy and enthusiasm when you are relatively young.

This condemnation of the Eappens and the choices they made is appalling.
They did not cause the death of their child through their choice of childcare employee.
Somebody inflicted injuries on baby Matthew that caused his death.

The vast, vast majority of young professional couples in the US make exactly the same childcare choice the Eappens did - they hire someone young, someone who represents herself as able and willing and enthusiastic about working with babies and small children - and their babies do not end up dead.

What is happening here is victim blaming at its most vile. A woman dares to keep working in a professional capacity after having a child, and is on trial forever afterwards when it all goes wrong for her child.

www.nytimes.com/1997/10/24/us/a-murder-trial-about-more-than-a-nanny.html

...the reaction to Matthew's death among some Americans appears to fit with a lingering unwillingness among them to accept the idea of working mothers, said Stephanie Coontz, professor of history and family studies at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash., and author of ''The Way We Really Are: Coming to Terms with America's Changing Families'' (Basic Books).

Two-thirds of American mothers of children under 6 work, Ms. Coontz said. Yet instead of creating a national child care policy, she said, ''we say to individual women, 'You go out there blindfolded and get the best child care you can, and if you can't, we're going to blame you.''

The criticism of Dr. Eappen prompted one Boston Globe reader to write in outrage that when welfare mothers stayed home with their children, they were branded lazy; when working mothers put their children into day care, they were accused of ''dumping'' them in germ-infested settings; and when they used au pairs, they were accused of abandoning their children to inexperienced teen-agers.

I don't imagine my friend was the only NNEB nanny working in the US as a nanny not an aupair. The Eappens lived in a very nice house, they weren't penniless they could have lived cheaper and had better childcare. So what was the priority?
ancientgran · 12/01/2022 16:32

By the way mathanxiety the victim was Matthew and no one is blaming him.

x2boys · 12/01/2022 16:39

@gunnersgold

Those who don't think she did it , who do you think did hurt him?
The defence was it was an old injury , which if it was someone else may have done it .
x2boys · 12/01/2022 16:44

Nobody is saying Deborah shouldn't have worked ,pleanty of people can't afford to give up their jobs when they have children in the us and the UK ,it's the choice of childcare they used people have an issue with .

CaroleFuckingBaskin · 12/01/2022 18:04

I do wonder if the sibling gave him a whack before this. Maybe with a metal toy or something