Page 31 | Louise Woodward The Killer Nanny. did she do it?

HeckinMiffed · 2022-01-09T21:08:51+00:00

This was such a huge case when I was younger. Anyone else watching? I always thought she didnt deliberately kill the baby.

XelaM · 09/10/2022 07:59

Novum · 09/10/2022 07:53

They don't have to have "hated" the baby. We all know there are countless instances of loving parents suddenly losing it, whether out of extreme tiredness, due to external stresses, or whatever. There is also the possibility of accident.

I don't think LW's behaviour in court was due to anything other than nervousness and stress.

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So let's assume the parents caused the massive skull fracture (whether intentionally or by accident) but then what... they didn't take him to the hospital and he continued to function as normal with no one noticing that he has a major brain trauma incompatible with life until that one day when he collapsed in Louise's care? It's not a plausible theory

XelaM · 09/10/2022 08:00

I don't think she intended to kill the baby, but she caused his death, which is what the judge's verdict says.

Pemba · 09/10/2022 08:51

@XelaM oh give it a rest! Louise W is a real person who has a child who perhaps in a few years will start reading stuff on the Internet about their mother, including your unpleasant rants. How nice for them, poor kid.

Why are you so personally obsessed with the case? It's quite odd. It was many years ago now.

XelaM · 09/10/2022 09:07

I only watched the C4 documentary yesterday and saw there was a thread about it on here, so I commented on it. I thought this was a discussion about the documentary 🤷‍♀️Hardly an obsession. Anyway, I'm sure her own kids will read much worse things online about her case than my few posts on this thread

Sparklingbrook · 09/10/2022 11:01

Pemba · 09/10/2022 08:51

@XelaM oh give it a rest! Louise W is a real person who has a child who perhaps in a few years will start reading stuff on the Internet about their mother, including your unpleasant rants. How nice for them, poor kid.

Why are you so personally obsessed with the case? It's quite odd. It was many years ago now.

I had the same thoughts.

PoseyFlump · 09/10/2022 11:40

There is also the possibility of accident.

I think this is the issue with many cases like this. We are led to believe it has to be Louise or no-one but I'd like to hear more about other possible scenarios. Could the child have fallen out of bed and seemed okay to the parents but took a turn for the worse later in the day as the injury bled?

Could the sibling have dropped the child on the head while parents or Louise were distracted?

I think I've watched so many documentaries on Netflix where the police decide it is one person and make the evidence fit without exploring all avenues that I prefer true evidence, not just say so from an 'expert'.

Lindy Chamberlain claimed her baby was taken by a dingo in the Australian outback. She was sent to prison for murder. People paraded the streets in 'the dingo is innocent' T-shirts. It took over 30 years to prove a dingo did take the baby and Lindy was innocent.

PoseyFlump · 09/10/2022 11:53

When my brother was 8 years old he was climbing a tree at lunchtime and fell, hurting his arm. He told his teachers, who didn't believe how bad it was and made him do PE in the afternoon (it was the seventies)

When he got home my mum took him hospital and he had an X-ray, discovering his arm was fractured.

So. Had my brother not told a teacher and no-one else knew, would it be reasonable for my mum to have been arrested for child abuse? Of course not. But what if it had been his head and not his arm and he couldn't tell anyone what happened?

It frightens me how some people think 'there is no doubt' on such flimsy evidence in this case.

XelaM · 09/10/2022 12:04

PoseyFlump · 09/10/2022 11:53

When my brother was 8 years old he was climbing a tree at lunchtime and fell, hurting his arm. He told his teachers, who didn't believe how bad it was and made him do PE in the afternoon (it was the seventies)

When he got home my mum took him hospital and he had an X-ray, discovering his arm was fractured.

So. Had my brother not told a teacher and no-one else knew, would it be reasonable for my mum to have been arrested for child abuse? Of course not. But what if it had been his head and not his arm and he couldn't tell anyone what happened?

It frightens me how some people think 'there is no doubt' on such flimsy evidence in this case.

Babies don't climb trees though and a skull fracture is not the same as a broken arm (actually the exact same thing as you say happened when I was a kid and broke my arm horse riding). But a skull fracture on a baby cannot just not show any symptoms at all but then suddenly it's so major that the baby can't function. I don't think the evidence here was "flimsy". Fact is Louise was taking care of him and he went from being a healthy baby to having a major head injury. If it was accident she could have said that, but she never claimed it was an accident. She did admit to dropping him on the towel on the floor after his bath and to shaking him (albeit not too hard or for too long). I don't think that's flimsy evidence.

Lindy Chamberlain claimed her baby was taken by a dingo in the Australian outback. She was sent to prison for murder. People paraded the streets in 'the dingo is innocent' T-shirts. It took over 30 years to prove a dingo did take the baby and Lindy was innocent.

There is a brilliant film I've seen about this case with Maryl Streep. It's called "Evil Angels" I think.

XelaM · 09/10/2022 12:04

Meryl*

PoseyFlump · 09/10/2022 12:22

If you bang your head, the first thing a doctor will say is keep an eye on it, look for signs of concussion. If concussion was immediate the doctor would know just by looking at you. So there are times when a head injury can get worse at a later date. A child crying and being sleepy that then changes into not responding.

He went from being a healthy baby

Says who? At what point? Was the bleeding immediate or did it happen over a certain timeframe? Was there an old wrist injury or is that made up? More questions than answers. But we can't say 'no that doesn't happen' because sometimes it does happen that people take a turn for the worse much later than the time that the injury occurred.

x2boys · 09/10/2022 12:50

XelaM · 09/10/2022 12:04

Babies don't climb trees though and a skull fracture is not the same as a broken arm (actually the exact same thing as you say happened when I was a kid and broke my arm horse riding). But a skull fracture on a baby cannot just not show any symptoms at all but then suddenly it's so major that the baby can't function. I don't think the evidence here was "flimsy". Fact is Louise was taking care of him and he went from being a healthy baby to having a major head injury. If it was accident she could have said that, but she never claimed it was an accident. She did admit to dropping him on the towel on the floor after his bath and to shaking him (albeit not too hard or for too long). I don't think that's flimsy evidence.

Lindy Chamberlain claimed her baby was taken by a dingo in the Australian outback. She was sent to prison for murder. People paraded the streets in 'the dingo is innocent' T-shirts. It took over 30 years to prove a dingo did take the baby and Lindy was innocent.

There is a brilliant film I've seen about this case with Maryl Streep. It's called "Evil Angels" I think.

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Babies can't climb trees ,but its not beyond the realms of possibility he could have rolled off the bed onto a hard surface and banged his head or that ,his toddler brother may have accidentally injured him ,It's clear Louise wasn't the world's best au pair, she could easily have been distracted and something could have happened
Also the shaken baby syndrome Matthew was a big baby he was 8 months old probably wriggling too ,to shake him to such an extent and for the length of time to cause his injuries would have been physically hard work, I remember when my boys were that age ,they were heavy!

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 13:07

Realityloom · 08/10/2022 20:40

True. The fact she was British massively changed the game it was her saving grace.

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I saw an interview with a young mother in a woman's prison in the US.
She phoned the ambulance and told the doctors exactly what she'd done because she was only thinking about saving the baby's life. The baby died and then she tried to kill herself in prison.
She had another child as well who was now being looked after by a relative.
I felt bad for her.
It must be really hard being a single parent with little support and no benefits - and she really missed that baby.
But the advice is really clear - if you're feeling like you're going out of your mind, put the baby in a safe place and go into another room to calm down.
I'm not sure how being 19 and in another country changes that advice.

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 09/10/2022 13:39

XelaM · 09/10/2022 12:04

Babies don't climb trees though and a skull fracture is not the same as a broken arm (actually the exact same thing as you say happened when I was a kid and broke my arm horse riding). But a skull fracture on a baby cannot just not show any symptoms at all but then suddenly it's so major that the baby can't function. I don't think the evidence here was "flimsy". Fact is Louise was taking care of him and he went from being a healthy baby to having a major head injury. If it was accident she could have said that, but she never claimed it was an accident. She did admit to dropping him on the towel on the floor after his bath and to shaking him (albeit not too hard or for too long). I don't think that's flimsy evidence.

Lindy Chamberlain claimed her baby was taken by a dingo in the Australian outback. She was sent to prison for murder. People paraded the streets in 'the dingo is innocent' T-shirts. It took over 30 years to prove a dingo did take the baby and Lindy was innocent.

There is a brilliant film I've seen about this case with Maryl Streep. It's called "Evil Angels" I think.

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It's called A Cry in the Dark

VeganSoulFood · 09/10/2022 16:04

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 13:07

I saw an interview with a young mother in a woman's prison in the US.
She phoned the ambulance and told the doctors exactly what she'd done because she was only thinking about saving the baby's life. The baby died and then she tried to kill herself in prison.
She had another child as well who was now being looked after by a relative.
I felt bad for her.
It must be really hard being a single parent with little support and no benefits - and she really missed that baby.
But the advice is really clear - if you're feeling like you're going out of your mind, put the baby in a safe place and go into another room to calm down.
I'm not sure how being 19 and in another country changes that advice.

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Being 19 and in another country doesn’t change the advice about putting down the baby safely and going to calm down in another room, but surely it doesn’t require a vivid imagination to grasp that an immature, untrained, inexperienced teenager in another country isn’t necessarily in the proper headspace to act on the advice?

I was an au pair at 19, first time abroad, with only a basic school level of the language, two very challenging children aged four and one for long hours solo, homesick, untrained, shy — I eventually found my feet, but at the beginning I absolutely did things that were potentially risky for the children, out of panic and inexperience. I was just lucky it didn’t go wrong. The au pair system is quite mad.

Realityloom · 09/10/2022 16:31

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 13:07

I saw an interview with a young mother in a woman's prison in the US.
She phoned the ambulance and told the doctors exactly what she'd done because she was only thinking about saving the baby's life. The baby died and then she tried to kill herself in prison.
She had another child as well who was now being looked after by a relative.
I felt bad for her.
It must be really hard being a single parent with little support and no benefits - and she really missed that baby.
But the advice is really clear - if you're feeling like you're going out of your mind, put the baby in a safe place and go into another room to calm down.
I'm not sure how being 19 and in another country changes that advice.

Show quote history

This doesn't apply to Louise just to be clear. Being a mother is stressful and as a mother you should recognise that surely because your leaving your 2 babies with a young girl of 19.......... let that sink in.

Regarding the "advise" if you are suffering with PND I think it's far more complicated than putting your baby down. When they won't settle its horrendous I think I had more baby blues and lots of milk issues. Tbh if you had of given me that patronising advice I would have screamed.

x2boys · 09/10/2022 17:36

VeganSoulFood · 09/10/2022 16:04

Being 19 and in another country doesn’t change the advice about putting down the baby safely and going to calm down in another room, but surely it doesn’t require a vivid imagination to grasp that an immature, untrained, inexperienced teenager in another country isn’t necessarily in the proper headspace to act on the advice?

I was an au pair at 19, first time abroad, with only a basic school level of the language, two very challenging children aged four and one for long hours solo, homesick, untrained, shy — I eventually found my feet, but at the beginning I absolutely did things that were potentially risky for the children, out of panic and inexperience. I was just lucky it didn’t go wrong. The au pair system is quite mad.

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I visited a friend who was au pairing in Boston a few weeks after LW was released from prison ,the children she waa looking after were school age and she just needed to get them up and ready for school drop them off ,pick them up after school and give them their tea and wait untill the parents got home from work I think she had a fairly easy ride I dont remember her doing much with them at the weekend, maybe park etc ,but she had plenty of free time ,i guess it very much depends which family you are allocated too.

PoseyFlump · 09/10/2022 17:51

Tbh if you had of given me that patronising advice I would have screamed.

I agree. It's like telling a suicidal person to pull themselves together. You can't 'reason' with a mental illness. (I used to live with someone with a severe mental illness)

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 18:52

VeganSoulFood · 09/10/2022 16:04

Being 19 and in another country doesn’t change the advice about putting down the baby safely and going to calm down in another room, but surely it doesn’t require a vivid imagination to grasp that an immature, untrained, inexperienced teenager in another country isn’t necessarily in the proper headspace to act on the advice?

I was an au pair at 19, first time abroad, with only a basic school level of the language, two very challenging children aged four and one for long hours solo, homesick, untrained, shy — I eventually found my feet, but at the beginning I absolutely did things that were potentially risky for the children, out of panic and inexperience. I was just lucky it didn’t go wrong. The au pair system is quite mad.

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I'm a bit surprised people leave children under 3 with au pairs. I think what I was getting at was that the young mother - who is with the baby 24/7, unlike the au pair - didn't get any leniency from the judge, even though she cooperated with the doctors to try to save the baby. I also wonder if there's an element of bias against single mothers? Single mothers are bad mothers, more middle class au pairs are just stressed or depressed? Don't know if I've got enough information to prove that though.

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 19:02

Realityloom · 09/10/2022 16:31

This doesn't apply to Louise just to be clear. Being a mother is stressful and as a mother you should recognise that surely because your leaving your 2 babies with a young girl of 19.......... let that sink in.

Regarding the "advise" if you are suffering with PND I think it's far more complicated than putting your baby down. When they won't settle its horrendous I think I had more baby blues and lots of milk issues. Tbh if you had of given me that patronising advice I would have screamed.

Show quote history

I had PND too. I went around the flat closing the windows because I had this crazy idea that I might dangle the baby out of the window in a moment of madness. It wasn't so much a case of putting the baby down somewhere safe, as hearing the baby cry because it had fallen off the bed or sofa and thinking 'When did I put the baby down there? Why did I put the baby down there?' I couldn't remember what I'd done two minutes ago.

The 'patronising advice' came from the NHS 😂I wasn't offended. I just took it as practical advice that was acknowledging that you might sometime feel overwhelmed, and it was ok to need a bit of headspace. However, if you feel that way about it, that's how you feel.

I didn't really understand the first part of your post. Like I said, I don't really understand why people leave children under the age of 3 with teenage au pairs. That maybe sounds a bit judgy, but I'm genuinely confused - are experienced nannies just hard to come by?

LynneBenfield · 09/10/2022 19:21

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 19:02

I had PND too. I went around the flat closing the windows because I had this crazy idea that I might dangle the baby out of the window in a moment of madness. It wasn't so much a case of putting the baby down somewhere safe, as hearing the baby cry because it had fallen off the bed or sofa and thinking 'When did I put the baby down there? Why did I put the baby down there?' I couldn't remember what I'd done two minutes ago.

The 'patronising advice' came from the NHS 😂I wasn't offended. I just took it as practical advice that was acknowledging that you might sometime feel overwhelmed, and it was ok to need a bit of headspace. However, if you feel that way about it, that's how you feel.

I didn't really understand the first part of your post. Like I said, I don't really understand why people leave children under the age of 3 with teenage au pairs. That maybe sounds a bit judgy, but I'm genuinely confused - are experienced nannies just hard to come by?

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I think experienced nannies are considered often too expensive. I think the rules have since tightened up re au pair use but having a young, inexperienced late teen/early 20’s au pair (often with not much English) was certainly much more common when my children (now in their 20’s) were small. Though admittedly, I don’t recall many having children of toddler age, most were nursery/reception aged+.

LynneBenfield · 09/10/2022 19:21

that first sentence should say “are/were often considered too expensive”.

Realityloom · 09/10/2022 19:29

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 19:02

I had PND too. I went around the flat closing the windows because I had this crazy idea that I might dangle the baby out of the window in a moment of madness. It wasn't so much a case of putting the baby down somewhere safe, as hearing the baby cry because it had fallen off the bed or sofa and thinking 'When did I put the baby down there? Why did I put the baby down there?' I couldn't remember what I'd done two minutes ago.

The 'patronising advice' came from the NHS 😂I wasn't offended. I just took it as practical advice that was acknowledging that you might sometime feel overwhelmed, and it was ok to need a bit of headspace. However, if you feel that way about it, that's how you feel.

I didn't really understand the first part of your post. Like I said, I don't really understand why people leave children under the age of 3 with teenage au pairs. That maybe sounds a bit judgy, but I'm genuinely confused - are experienced nannies just hard to come by?

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Maybe you wasn't offended because you wasn't very well at the time?!

VeganSoulFood · 10/10/2022 01:16

Popgoestheweaselagain · 09/10/2022 19:02

I had PND too. I went around the flat closing the windows because I had this crazy idea that I might dangle the baby out of the window in a moment of madness. It wasn't so much a case of putting the baby down somewhere safe, as hearing the baby cry because it had fallen off the bed or sofa and thinking 'When did I put the baby down there? Why did I put the baby down there?' I couldn't remember what I'd done two minutes ago.

The 'patronising advice' came from the NHS 😂I wasn't offended. I just took it as practical advice that was acknowledging that you might sometime feel overwhelmed, and it was ok to need a bit of headspace. However, if you feel that way about it, that's how you feel.

I didn't really understand the first part of your post. Like I said, I don't really understand why people leave children under the age of 3 with teenage au pairs. That maybe sounds a bit judgy, but I'm genuinely confused - are experienced nannies just hard to come by?

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Teenage au pairs are cheaper than qualified, experienced childcare. I think I was on 30 francs a week (this was back in the early 90s), plus my food, and I ate like a gnat because I was homesick, so I was a very cost-effective proposition…

Popgoestheweaselagain · 10/10/2022 09:07

LynneBenfield · 09/10/2022 19:21

I think experienced nannies are considered often too expensive. I think the rules have since tightened up re au pair use but having a young, inexperienced late teen/early 20’s au pair (often with not much English) was certainly much more common when my children (now in their 20’s) were small. Though admittedly, I don’t recall many having children of toddler age, most were nursery/reception aged+.

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Yes, but the family in the woodward case were a double income family, both doctors. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I assumed they would have enough money to hire somebody more experienced. If I were working in a hospital I wouldn't be able to concentrate on my patients if I knew my baby was being taken care of by a teenager who'd been partying all night. I'd rather be broke for a few years until the kid was at least out of nappies, and then hire an au pair.

Having said that, that doesn't mean I think they deserved what happened to them or it was their fault. Wouldn't want anybody to think that's what I was suggeting.

Popgoestheweaselagain · 10/10/2022 09:09

Realityloom · 09/10/2022 19:29

Maybe you wasn't offended because you wasn't very well at the time?!

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I was quite out of it! And I didn't really realise at the time. It's only looking back that I see how crazy that closing all the windows during a heat wave thing was. All that happened was that they baby kicked a slipper off and it fell out of the window, and then I became obsessed with the idea that the baby might go out the window!