Louise Woodward The Killer Nanny. did she do it?

[HeckinMiffed]

This was such a huge case when I was younger. Anyone else watching?
I always thought she didnt deliberately kill the baby.

@CaroleFuckingBaskin

I do wonder if the sibling gave him a whack before this. Maybe with a metal toy or something

Exactly what I thought. The bone had started to regrow from the fracture. She shook him gently when he was unresponsive.

@x2boys

Nobody is saying Deborah shouldn't have worked ,pleanty of people can't afford to give up their jobs when they have children in the us and the UK ,it's the choice of childcare they used people have an issue with .

Some mothers on here spend all their salary on good childcare so that they can progress their careers.

@whatdramain2022
Agree. Lots of toddlers wallop babies heads with toys etc. Been there with my own dc

Nobody is saying Deborah shouldn't have worked ,pleanty of people can't afford to give up their jobs when they have children in the us and the UK ,it's the choice of childcare they used people have an issue with .

There is a very strong narrative here featuring an allegedly wealthy couple who cared so little about their children that they hired someone whose only attraction as a childcare worker was the fact they could pay her very little. In other words, their children were very low on their list of priorities. That is damning, and because the world we live in is not a fair one, it damns Deborah Eappen.

They were living in an era when there was no internet, no way to check British references unless they managed to make international phone calls to people they might or might not have succeeded in making contact with. So they relied on an agency to vouch for LW's interest in childcare and ability to fulfill the job requirements.

The job required living in, which is how au pairing works. The term means 'as an equal' and indicates you are part of the family. The au pair programme is envisioned as a cultural/educational exchange, where young people get a taste of the culture of another country, while receiving an allowance, not a salary, room and board, and the opportunity to see and enjoy whatever the area offers

Living with the family automatically ruled out the vast majority of people working as nannies, and made an au pair a very attractive proposition for the Eappens.

They did exactly what thousands of other parents did, and paid exactly what thousands of other parents paid. The only difference between them and others is that their child ended up dead by hand unknown.

Some mothers on here spend all their salary on good childcare so that they can progress their careers.

They are fools. Do the fathers of the babies pay for childcare?

I would hazard a guess that most of the martyr mothers do not have American medical school loans to repay.

It would have made an interesting thread on here that's for sure. Looking for childcare advice and pondering the following...

Lots of toddlers wallop babies heads with toys etc. Been there with my own dc

If it was the case that a wallop from a toddler could fracture the skull of an 8 month old, then hospitals would be full of babies with fractured skulls and we would bar toddlers from holding anything but small stuffed animals.

The idea that another child did this is preposterous.

Same age difference with my two and the eldest would sometimes be a bit rough with the baby, lots of 'be gentle' etc Had to be very watchful.

But DC1 fell off the bed as a baby when DH was on duty so things do happen.

I don't imagine my friend was the only NNEB nanny working in the US as a nanny not an aupair. The Eappens lived in a very nice house, they weren't penniless they could have lived cheaper and had better childcare. So what was the priority?

Your friend was probably one of maybe ten - twelve - fifty British nannies working in the US at the time?

Even if there were two hundred of them, are you claiming that this British training school turned out enough nannies to staff every MC home in America? Are you claiming that the Eappens could afford such a nanny?

You say they 'weren't penniless', as if the average doctor couple early in their careers should have been able to afford the pick of the nanny crop. I am here to disabuse you of the notion that living in what you would consider a 'very nice house' and being a doctor equals 'wealthy enough to afford a premium nanny' in the US.

The average family income in Newton MA today is $138,000, which puts it squarely in middle class territory. This means parents there will struggle to send kids to university because they will not qualify for much in financial aid. When the time comes, they will draw on university savings plans (which means they sock away money while the children are small) and take out loans, perhaps a second mortgage on a nice house in a MC area, perhaps income from investments. This is solid financial planning for children you assume will live to see the benefits. They did not have their children low in their priority list. Everything they did put the children first. They had a long term plan just as most of my neighbours in a similar suburb of a large American city do. They trusted someone who represented herself to be a capable and enthusiastic childcare employer just as millions of other families do.

Newton has well regarded schools, which means property taxes are high. It is a safe community, with a very low level of crime. This indicates its police force is well staffed, again thanks to property taxes. Newton has a massive and very beautiful public library, again funded by property taxes. There's a public pool and all season rink - $$$. All of that is for the benefit of the children who live there, and it contributes to the price of houses, which in turn contributes to the ability of parents to finance university education, and so on ...

If the Eappens were earning about the average MC salary in mid 90s (which would be the case because she was only working PT and they were both starting out in their careers), and subtracting a substantial amount every month for life insurance, mortgage insurance, mortgage, car payment, property tax escrow account, perhaps an investment account, very likely retirement accounts (IRA, Roth IRA, perhaps 401k through their employers), medical school and possibly undergrad school loans, and trying to put money aside for college savings for their children, they would have been hard pressed to afford a British nanny with a fancy certificate. This is how American MC families live. It's not as swishy as it may look from far away across the ocean.

I wonder what they did for childcare when he next two DC came along.

@mathanxiety

I don't imagine my friend was the only NNEB nanny working in the US as a nanny not an aupair. The Eappens lived in a very nice house, they weren't penniless they could have lived cheaper and had better childcare. So what was the priority?

Your friend was probably one of maybe ten - twelve - fifty British nannies working in the US at the time?

Even if there were two hundred of them, are you claiming that this British training school turned out enough nannies to staff every MC home in America? Are you claiming that the Eappens could afford such a nanny?

You say they 'weren't penniless', as if the average doctor couple early in their careers should have been able to afford the pick of the nanny crop. I am here to disabuse you of the notion that living in what you would consider a 'very nice house' and being a doctor equals 'wealthy enough to afford a premium nanny' in the US.

The average family income in Newton MA today is $138,000, which puts it squarely in middle class territory. This means parents there will struggle to send kids to university because they will not qualify for much in financial aid. When the time comes, they will draw on university savings plans (which means they sock away money while the children are small) and take out loans, perhaps a second mortgage on a nice house in a MC area, perhaps income from investments. This is solid financial planning for children you assume will live to see the benefits. They did not have their children low in their priority list. Everything they did put the children first. They had a long term plan just as most of my neighbours in a similar suburb of a large American city do. They trusted someone who represented herself to be a capable and enthusiastic childcare employer just as millions of other families do.

Newton has well regarded schools, which means property taxes are high. It is a safe community, with a very low level of crime. This indicates its police force is well staffed, again thanks to property taxes. Newton has a massive and very beautiful public library, again funded by property taxes. There's a public pool and all season rink - $$$. All of that is for the benefit of the children who live there, and it contributes to the price of houses, which in turn contributes to the ability of parents to finance university education, and so on ...

If the Eappens were earning about the average MC salary in mid 90s (which would be the case because she was only working PT and they were both starting out in their careers), and subtracting a substantial amount every month for life insurance, mortgage insurance, mortgage, car payment, property tax escrow account, perhaps an investment account, very likely retirement accounts (IRA, Roth IRA, perhaps 401k through their employers), medical school and possibly undergrad school loans, and trying to put money aside for college savings for their children, they would have been hard pressed to afford a British nanny with a fancy certificate. This is how American MC families live. It's not as swishy as it may look from far away across the ocean.

The NNEB was a qualification,from the Nursery Nurse Exam board ,it wasn't one school ,lots of colleges around the countrybl offered the course ,it was quite popular with young girls ,it was a two year course and they will have studied child development and had placements in nurseries etc ,I don't think the NNEB exists anymore ,but there will be an NVQ equivalent . Generally NNEB students would be around 18/19 when they finished there courses .

The qualification was no guarantee of solid experience day in, day out with babies, toddlers, or preschool children, just as similar qualifications from American community colleges wouldn't guarantee solid hands-on experience.

www.irishtimes.com/news/parents-took-heart-breaking-decision-to-take-baby-off-life-support-machine-1.163924

Matthew's mother, a 32-year-old graduate of the University of Illinois, had returned to work in September after the baby's birth the previous May.

She admitted the couple's hectic life-style was a "balancing act", juggling their professional careers and home life with two children.

The two doctors had finishing their training only two years before. Deborah Eappen, one of seven children whose parents are a teacher and a nurse, passed up a chief residency at the New England Medical Centre and a fellowship at Boston's Children's Hospital because she was pregnant with Matthew.

Instead she took on her part-time job, leaving her more time with the children.

Her job, five minutes from the couple's home, involved eight-hour shifts, three days a week.

Some background on Deborah Eappen, for those saying she didn't prioritise the children and that they could have afforded someone with 'qualifications' to live in.

Well it did because they had placements working in nurseries and schools etc ,but even so if I A qualified nursery nurse would be better trained and have more experience than an au pair .

NNEB was a two year course equivalent to A Level, I think it's called a Diploma in Childcare and Education now.
Norland Nannies do qualifications that are equal to a degree, and they can earn ££££s.

A qualified nursery 'nurse' would not necessarily have what it takes to live with a family and be completely involved in childcare and family life week after week.

You are claiming that placements in formal childcare settings would have produced adequate practice in ongoing childcare in a family home, and also adequate indication of fitness for a childcare job within a family.

This is an equivalent course (NVQ3). It is online and geared toward formal childcare situations.
www.parenta.com/childcare-courses/courses/level-3-childcare/

The US government upgraded its requirements for au pairs to 200 documented hours of hands on childcare in the wake of the LW case.

Hands on experience in childcare in the child's home is a far better preparation for caring for children in their own home, dealing with parents, pets, schedules that can vary.

Norland nannies would be out of reach for a MC American couple.

Norland graduates will set you back £35k per year in the UK if you hire a newly minted graduate, and up to £65k for nannies with experience.

@Sparklingbrook

NNEB was a two year course equivalent to A Level, I think it's called a Diploma in Childcare and Education now. Norland Nannies do qualifications that are equal to a degree, and they can earn ££££s.

Yes Norland nannies expect to get prestigious jobs ,there was a series about them when I was on maternity leave ironically with my fifteen year old they are supposed to be the best!

@mathanxiety

Norland nannies would be out of reach for a MC American couple.

Norland graduates will set you back £35k per year in the UK if you hire a newly minted graduate, and up to £65k for nannies with experience.

My friend's sister is a Norland Nanny. She has quite the lifestyle.It's not really relevant for this thread I guess but it's just another option for anyone wanting to have a career in childcare. I'm not suggesting a NN would go off to the US, there's plenty of opportunity in the UK.

@mathanxiety

A qualified nursery 'nurse' would not necessarily have what it takes to live with a family and be completely involved in childcare and family life week after week.

You are claiming that placements in formal childcare settings would have produced adequate practice in ongoing childcare in a family home, and also adequate indication of fitness for a childcare job within a family.

This is an equivalent course (NVQ3). It is online and geared toward formal childcare situations.
www.parenta.com/childcare-courses/courses/level-3-childcare/

The US government upgraded its requirements for au pairs to 200 documented hours of hands on childcare in the wake of the LW case.

Hands on experience in childcare in the child's home is a far better preparation for caring for children in their own home, dealing with parents, pets, schedules that can vary.

I think the point is that an NNEB was a nationally recognised childcare qualification in the UK ,and the young people who had one would have had a level of knowledge and experience far superior to an average au pair at the time .

I watched the ITV documentary today. I didn't know that 4 of the 16 jurors were taken out to leave the 12. All those 4 had medical/business backgrounds. Interesting.

I think she caused his death but it was an accident

A typical nursery nurse in the UK who holds the relevant qualifications , probably can't expect to earn a great wage even now ,but they would be more accountable then somebody who doesn't hold the qualifications.

There is a very strong narrative here featuring an allegedly wealthy couple who cared so little about their children that they hired someone whose only attraction as a childcare worker was the fact they could pay her very little. In other words, their children were very low on their list of priorities. That is damning, and because the world we live in is not a fair one, it damns Deborah Eappen.

I really think you’re taking a personal offence to this. I don’t think the parents were bad people, I think the system was flawed in such a way that an incident like this was almost bound to happen.

A system that encourages exploiting young people to do very difficult work (all day full time care of a toddler known to have difficult behaviour and a small baby) is flawed. Cases like this encourage us to look at/criticise that flawed system and wonder there are lessons to be learned. It doesn’t mean we’re making a villain of the mother/suggesting that she’s to blame because that’s not the case. Rather, it’s just saying ‘how can we stop this from happening again? Is this system a fair and safe one?’

My cousin did an NNEB back in the early 90,s ,she was then employed as a Nanny for many years after, for different families,only giving it up when she had her own children