The Handmaids Tale S4 at C4 pace (no spoilers) thread 3

[MotionActivatedDog]

New thread!

Why would Canada send Serena back to Gilead? They want to prosecute her for war crimes.

@CleanQueen123

Just catching up. Amazing imagery with the aunt at the group. Sitting her in the middle on a red chair with the former handmaids sat on teal chairs around her. Like the shaming circles at the red centres but now the handmaids have the power.

Yes I liked that too

@ElephantOfRisk

And during the trial, she recounted certain things that were different to my memory of them. For example, did Serena watch June and Nick having sex? I thought they had a secret affair, but I could be wrong.

Both. Serena instigated them having sex to make her a baby but they also had an affair seperate to that. However that was consensual and whilst it might be against Gilead rules, it's not against the law.

When the defence started on about June having an affair with a married man, I know they were talking about Luke but I wondered if they were going to spill the beans on the affair with Nick but then I couldn't remember if they carried on after he was married to Eden?

They must have because I remember after Eden died, she was talking to Rita and Rita said she wished she had done more and June said in response "I slept with her husband"

@CleanQueen123

Just catching up. Amazing imagery with the aunt at the group. Sitting her in the middle on a red chair with the former handmaids sat on teal chairs around her. Like the shaming circles at the red centres but now the handmaids have the power.

Yes, I half-expected them to start pointing and shout 'Bitch, bitch, bitch' at her!

@Roussette

Why would they let Fred and Serena go out and milk the crowd? Surely surely they are under arrest and wouldn't be allowed to do that?

I think there's political stuff afoot- wouldn't surprise me if they did a swap of prisoners or trade deal involving them. How neutral is Canada really? They don't want to make an enemy of Gilead and end up in a war.

Are Fred and Serena free? Did they get found not guilty?

I'm so worried that Fred and Serena will be released back to Gilead and get away with it all. I'm also nervous about June- especially now that we see Gilead "supporters" in Canada- I'm hoping she doesn't get attacked/ kidnapped.

@cleocleo16

Are Fred and Serena free? Did they get found not guilty?

No they have not had a,trial yet The protesters were calling for them to be freed Presumably gilead supporters/evangelicals who think gilead is right and God s will is just etc etc

I really enjoyed this episode.

The colours almost emulated being back in gilead, the oppression of the commander's house, all dark and grim.

Which makes sense. They all were waiting for that escape to freedom but of course they have taken themselves and all their experiences with them.

June was like Aunt Lydia when the Emily's 'aunt' was in the centre of the circle. I half expected June to ask who's fault it was and the women to all start pointing and chanting "it's her fault! Her fault" "Shes to blame "

And of course the aunt couldn't flee from what she had done. It followed her. And when faced with her victim and no forgiveness was given she couldn't live with what she had done.

What did strike me though is how some things don't seem so bad depending on who's side you are on. Did it seem okay that June made that scenario happen? To make that aunt atone and face up to her crimes? Because, she deserved it? Because her crimes were so bad. Because she was 'bad'

But, aunt Lydia, she believed that these girls had committed a sin, an evil sin. That they needed to atone for these sins so Lydia saw these circles where they were ridiculed and shamed as worth it to change their evil and sinful behaviour. So many parallels.

It's something that always strikes me in war. When you are fighting 'the other side" who in your mind of course are invariably wrong, is anything too far? Or is it justified? Each side feels so strongly about their beliefs of what is right and what is wrong that they are willing to go to any lengths to make the world bend to their way.

I've just been reading an article in the NYT about Atwood's influences on THT. TV evangelicalism and a vocal feminist backlash were huge in the USA in the early 1980s. Phylis Schafly and Tammy Faye Bakker are widely seen as who Atwood based the (book) character of Serena Joy on. For anyone who is interested in context, it makes interesting reading. Especially the influence of right wing, Christian, evangelical culture - as that's something that is alien to us in the U.K.

I think the fact that June isn't a likeable character and her past wasn't whiter than whiter makes the story even more compelling and complex. It's at odds with her experiences and how you might feel about her despite what she's been through. It's a bit of a mind play for the viewer. It makes it much more interesting.

I agree. I think it would be a really disappointing way to end the series if she just waltzes off into the sunset, all happy now with Luke. There's been too much trauma and pain and sadness for that to be in any way reasonable or likely.

Considering there are only 2 episodes to go, I can’t even guess how it will end. So much in last night’s episode. I had to watch again tonight to take it all in.
The actress who plays Aunt Lydia is so good. I almost felt sorry for her begging commander Lawrence not to terminate her. And very poignant with Janine.

@BIWI

I agree. I think it would be a really disappointing way to end the series if she just waltzes off into the sunset, all happy now with Luke. There's been too much trauma and pain and sadness for that to be in any way reasonable or likely.

I agree. I don't know what will happen but waltzing off into the sunset with Luke isn't even on the cards.

I wonder how many people in Gilead really believe in it and how many are just doing what they can to stay alive?

@Iggi999

I wonder how many people in Gilead really believe in it and how many are just doing what they can to stay alive?

I remember the Econowife from the family who hid June saying they'd got away with staying together because they went to the right kind of church, so now they just kept their heads down & got on with things - until they got caught, of course. I would guess a lot of people are like that.

Lawrence was saying that the new handmaids were all compliant because Gilead was all they’d ever known. They must be having to come up with smaller & smaller infractions that lead to a girl becoming a Handmaid.

I was waiting for Aunt Irene to apologise to Emily. All she said was that she asks for forgiveness, but not once did the word sorry leave her lips. It goes to show how ingrained ideology is, even in those who've fled. She knows she is personally responsible for what she did to Emily, but she cannot admit that it was wrong.

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

Lawrence was saying that the new handmaids were all compliant because Gilead was all they’d ever known

I think this was one of the most chilling moments (alongside the Gilead/Waterford supporters outside the court) - because it suggests that the principles of the new country are 'bedding in' and being accepted now. Women who are 'chosen' to be handmaids will no longer be rebellious or refusals, like June et al, but just accept their lot.

... and in a way, this is mirrored by Moira's behaviour, now in Canada. All this stuff about wanting move on implies a degree of desire for acceptance.

Maybe for their own psychological wellbeing June and Emily (and others) will eventually have to accept/move on, but now isn't the time for this. They need to be allowed to be angry, and to express their anger.

Moira has been back in Canada for a while and has had time to come to terms with what happened to her. Luke too, although clearly he had much less of a traumatic, shocking time since his escape). They need to afford June the same.

Women who are 'chosen' to be handmaids will no longer be rebellious or refusals, like June et al, but just accept their lot.

That’s what I was thinking. But the presence of the cattle prods still suggests that they know not every girl (and I’m using girl rather than woman on purpose, because most of them must be so young) who’s chosen will want to do this.

In my original edition of the book, I’m sure Aunt Lydia told June’s group ‘Your daughters will have more freedom,’ which always seemed odd to me since they were expected to give birth to other people’s daughters. My new one says something like ‘The ones who come after you’, which makes more sense. The goal might be for girls to embrace being a Handmaid as an honourable way to serve, and that was the angle they pitched when that Mexican delegation visited & they were talking about the ‘selfless actions of a group of girls’ or whatever it was, but I think they’re a long way yet from actually achieving that.

If I remember right don't girls have a physical examination at puberty? I'm sure in one of the hospital scenes June saw young girls being taken for theirs.

I imagine that determines whether they are likely to be fertile and that determines their future;

Commanders fertile daughter - married to a commanders son
Fertile econodaighter who's well behaved - married to an econoson
Non fertile commanders daughter - aunt
Non fertile econodaughter - Martha or maybe allowed to stay with parents if they are elderly and need care
Badly behaved fertile woman - handmaid
Blandly behaved non fertile - colonies or jezebels

Only 2 episodes left of this season - wondering where it can go?!

I think this is a very realistic portrayal of trauma.

I thought that June told Luke about her last meeting with Hannah with good intentions, but as someone has said upthread I now wonder if it was done to make him as angry as possible.

So sad for Janine. I’m sure that Lydia will be telling her about her son. Maybe they’ll use Janine against June.

June's eye might have been bleeding because of the bombing they were caught up in

Sorry, Janine

I felt the opposite about June telling Luke.

I felt like she was raging at the world, including Luke, hence the forceful and aggressive sex. Now that she has directed her anger elsewhere, with a purpose if you like, she can soften to Luke and be more gentle with him.

And that starts with being honest and open with him. I don't feel she is telling him to hurt him but to share the truth that he needs to hear about his daughter. And then they become more of a team. I also agree he shouldn't have gone against her wishes and gone to court. But he has shown that he wants, needs to hear it all. He needs to hear what really has gone on, with June and with Hannah.

I agree that it is a much more realistic tale of trauma. No rainbows and unicorns here. Gritty, dark, painful and ugly. Which is what extreme trauma does to people.

I also wonder where it can go in 2 episodes.

I got inexplicably pissed off at the supporters cheering the Waterfords. Reminded me of the people who stand cheering Trump. Or these religious nutter groups. Canada is not immune. It can be easy to think that Canada = good and all it's people in it hate and fear a Gilead regime. But, what if it's the boiling frog analogy? What if the supporters become more. If Gilead's ideology infiltrates Canada? We desperately want Canada to overthrow Gilead. But what if, instead of 'good' overcoming 'evil', Canada goes the way of Gilead. If it can happen to the US and to Mexico then surely it can happen anywhere. Scary thought.