The Handmaid's Tale S4 at C4 pace (no spoilers from Hulu subscribers) Thread 2

[OverByYer]

Under his eye

Is it? But not if you have a handmaid/are considered infertile?

And of course, none of the men are infertile, its the wives or handmaid's fault if they don't get pregnant from the obviously superior quality of the commander's sperm.

Does anyone think that the flashback scenes with Janine were saying that her life before Gilead was almost the same? I mean In the way she was treated by men. I remember in the book in the red centre they all sit in a circle with Janine in the middle and victim blame her for being raped but can't remember if this happened in season one it's so long since I watched it.

That's how she could do what June couldn't, as pre and post Gilead men have just used her for sex and she's used to it.

[quote CurbsideProphet]@ElephantOfRisk oh yes I'd completely forgotten about Serena's mum. Did she live on the coast or by a lake? Serena doesn't seem bothered about her at all. Yes perhaps she and Fred were both only children.
I would love it if June's mum made an appearance.

I was amazed by June and Janine's upper body strength when they managed to get themselves out of the container![/quote]
June's mum died in one of those hellish forced labour camps in series 1 or 2.

Did we actually see her die or was it just implied that she was unlikely to be last long?

@SallyCinnamon3009

Does anyone think that the flashback scenes with Janine were saying that her life before Gilead was almost the same? I mean In the way she was treated by men. I remember in the book in the red centre they all sit in a circle with Janine in the middle and victim blame her for being raped but can't remember if this happened in season one it's so long since I watched it.

That's how she could do what June couldn't, as pre and post Gilead men have just used her for sex and she's used to it.

Yes!

And the creepy sex man after they’ve escaped as well. Nothing changed really, just the costumes they made them wear.

June's mum was in the colonies so very likely that she's dead now. Unless she somehow managed to escape but I doubt it.

Just watched it. I think Serena is so utterly convinced that she is in the right, it doesn’t occur to her that Rita would be anything other than thrilled to see her.

Rita is properly religious (hence her reaction to the pregnancy) whereas I don’t think Serena is - it’s a mask for doing whatever she wants (much like Gilead in general).

Re the milk tanker - they were lucky it was milk and not some foul substance.

Loved everything with Rita in.
Agree Serena seems delusional.
At the end I thought June looked absolutely wrecked. It was interesting I felt that despite the "sex" Janine felt she had some power/had achieved something- which she had.

All this talk about June's mum has just triggered something for me. Now, she was a renowned midwife wasn't she? and yet was chucked to the colonies to rot but the birth of children seems to be left to happen in the commander's bed with a bunch of handmaids chanting and a school teacher in charge.

Now, I get that the pain of the women is of no consequence and they are all pretending that they live like shakers/in the good old past, but the safe birth of these babies seems to not be as important as people believe that it is. It's just not prioritised. They can run up a very specialist looking sterile operating theatre etc just to remove a commander's hand and yet don't have a medical setting for the births.

You would think that they'd all be scheduled for c sections and that they'd have scanned the fuck out of the babies before birth and have got rid of unbabies etc.

Clearly I've missed something.

@Roussette

It's good isn't it ElephantOfRisk.

I've been all over the world!

Flippin heck - Elisabeth moss' actor in this ep was stunning. It always is but wow.

I don't think Serena would take her baby to Gilead, she helped her Nicole out because she didn't want her to grow up but reading. But she is having a boy though...

P s I love geoguessr - I recommend the weatherspoons one!

I wonder if Janine is going to end up in a relationship with the warlord guy. She has form for getting involved with men in positions of power over her (Angela’s father).

@ElephantOfRisk I think it's one of those things that came from the book but make less sense in today's world. Back in 1984 women didn't get anywhere near the scans we do today.

I expect the lack of c sections also comes from theories that c sections aren't as good for babies as a natural birth. Also they can't fake a c section on the wife as easily.

I got the sense the 'back to basics' rhetoric also included the female dominated home birth 'ideal'. Also by the time the book / film is set, Gilead has been around long enough to have trained aunts in midwifery.

@ElephantOfRisk I think June's mum was a gynaecologist and carried out abortions. I might be misremembering, but I don't think she was a midwife.

I also don’t think The Ceremony is the most efficient way to get the handmaids pregnant.
I think we have to accept a bit of Gilead illogicality around all this.
You can see the leaders fixating on a particular culture who have a lot more children but don’t tend to have high intervention births (is that true of the Amish for instance?) and deciding that God was telling them to lay off the medical intervention and accept His will. We know they are very anti abortion and extending that to general medicalising of births isn’t too much of a stretch.

I don't think gilead was really about making new babies. It was about control. The ceremony was a way to legitimise sexual torture of some women and humiliation and belittling of others (wives). It's all about keeping women traumatised and subservient.

So glad to have found this thread! Love HMT and think this series has been excellent so far. I agree that Serena and deluded and it was good to see Janine gain a bit of agency in this episode/ June be told a few home truths.

Wasn't June's mother a very active feminist, and that's what got her sent to the colonies?

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

I also don’t think The Ceremony is the most efficient way to get the handmaids pregnant. I think we have to accept a bit of Gilead illogicality around all this. You can see the leaders fixating on a particular culture who have a lot more children but don’t tend to have high intervention births (is that true of the Amish for instance?) and deciding that God was telling them to lay off the medical intervention and accept His will. We know they are very anti abortion and extending that to general medicalising of births isn’t too much of a stretch.

I think this makes sense. aunt Lydia said that at the Magdalene centre the ceremony would still take place, but with the commanders and wives coming to the centre. Logically it would have made more sense to use the centres as places to impregnate the handmaidens using ivf and thereby they could have increased the number of eggs fertilised .

By keeping to the ceremony rules it does make the whole disgusting process about a show of power, not efficiency, which is the Gilead way in everything from execution to grocery shopping.

Blessed Day! Just place marking on this thread

[quote Twizbe]@ElephantOfRisk I think it's one of those things that came from the book but make less sense in today's world. Back in 1984 women didn't get anywhere near the scans we do today.

I expect the lack of c sections also comes from theories that c sections aren't as good for babies as a natural birth. Also they can't fake a c section on the wife as easily.

I got the sense the 'back to basics' rhetoric also included the female dominated home birth 'ideal'. Also by the time the book / film is set, Gilead has been around long enough to have trained aunts in midwifery. [/quote]
Yes, that makes sense, I've not read the book or thought about the context for the time it was written. Even in 2000 I only had one dating scan at 8 weeks.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

I don't think gilead was really about making new babies. It was about control. The ceremony was a way to legitimise sexual torture of some women and humiliation and belittling of others (wives). It's all about keeping women traumatised and subservient.

This is what I think too.

The low birth rate was a convenient excuse for The Sons of Jacob to take over and implement their regime. They're absolutely about power and control, keeping women in their place. They very conveniently follow the bits of the bible that fit their agenda and ignore everything else. The ceremony is based on the story of sisters Rachel & Leah. So they are deeply embedded in religion but also interpreting it for their own ends.

Absolutely @WitchSharkadder

I liked the juxtaposition of Janine in the first abortion clinic where the woman tells her she knows Janine is underestimated and then in the scene with June and Mr rapey June underestimates Janine and feels like she needs to be protected when actually, it was the other way round!

Just watched again with sub titles.
Janine is getting her strength of character back - although not sure how wise her choice is with regards to the leader.