Who are you calling fat?

[cushioncovers]

Anyone watching?

chipping I do not know precisely what she died of, but I do know she had weight related health issues. Obesity is like a catalyst for other diseases, diabetes, cardiac disease, some cancers; eg, if you are obese, you increase the risk of certain illnesses. Fact

Is that it for them. I hope there is after care some counselling support for them if needed.
It opened lots of wounds for Bab's in particular I really hope they continue to support her, there's nothing worse than opening a can of worms without support.

Victoria raised some challenging ideas that deserve attention. Her statement that if you're so concerned for their physical health you need to be concerned for their mental health too, cut right through the faux concern. Obese people feel bad about their image because they know the vast majority of people find their fat abhorrent. We have an image in our mind of what is aesthetically pleasing and the further you are away from that standard the more anxiety and self loathing you experience. Victoria is wanting to challenge this very damaging assumption of what constitutes beauty. I think Babs is a clear example of why this needs to change.

Victoria challenged us to re-consider the idea that fat/obese bodies are necessarily diseased. Slim people also experience diabetes. All sorts of behaviours put both slim and fat people at higher risk of developing diseases. Therefore; equating extra adipose tissue with disease is wrong.

Whilst her language and categorisation was clumsy and upsetting her point that the more fat you carry the more discrimination you face is true. Likewise, her point that 'good' fat people are the one's getting up in the morning, running around pounding the streets, pumping iron and joining slimming clubs etc are more acceptable to society than the 'bad' fat people who say: "No I'm going to eat what I want, wear a bikini, shake my booty and be happy." I see a similar dynamic as a person living with a disability. Inspiring disabled people are compliant patients in the physio room or they're training for the paralympics. You're encouraged to not accept how your body functions now but to constantly hope and look for a cure. A disabled body is a 'wrong' body that needs to be fixed.

Finally the medical establishment are beginning to acknowledge that being overweight/obese isn't a failure of the individual but rather a complicated entanglement between the role of genes and environment. If you have the right genes and you live in an environment with an abundant supply of easy calories (which we are enticed to eat) you have to apply herculean effort to remain slim.

I found this programme very interesting and I too did not like Victoria but I'm grateful she was on the show because she challenged me to think differently. I note most of the responses here have been to attack her (in a vicious way) rather than grapple with some of her ideas.

Therefore; equating extra adipose tissue with disease is wrong

Oh....oh my god....I cannot believe you actually think this.

Welcome to Mumsnet, Victoria.

I would agree that you cannot equate morality/goodness with adiposity or lack thereof. However, Victoria's science denial, and her double standards were abhorrent. She talked about "good" and "bad" fatties, but went on about how healthy she was and all the activities she did. She criticised Jack and Dell's exercise, but went swimming. She described a "fat scale" which was really very offensive and hurtful (particularly to Sarah). This was interesting to me; surely you don't need to have a scale of larger than bodies? But she seemed to like the hierarchy.

It is possible to understand obesity and be sensitive to obese people without being a science denier.

@sentient but Victoria's stance and desire to encourage her housemate away from a diet could lead to his early death by diebeties. How is that ever justified?

Extra adipose tissue does not equal disease (immediately)
Extra adipose tissue absolutely does equal a greater risk of many serious diseases (what with the stuff being wrapped around every single internal organ, preventing them from functioning properly, and all).

You can get away with it for a while but the heart won't pump indefinitely when the pipes are blocked, the diaphragm eventually won't open fully when there is something in the way, recent studies have shown fat cells within the lungs that will prevent effective breathing, arteries with fatty deposits will eventually block and there will be embolism and/or stroke, additional weight will cause more wear and tear on joints that will become damaged and painful affecting mobility... we could all go on and there are libraries of comprehensive peer-reviewed studies over decades proving it.

I am interested and open-minded about the effects of genetics, trauma, addiction and other factors that can make food very far from simple, and can mean it's not at all easy to keep a body in its ideal state for health. I also agree that we judge people with weight challenges too harshly and we under-recognise the neurological and genetic impacts. But we don't improve that situation by saying "it's fine to accept you live in a body that will inevitably cause you pain and illness" - because everyone deserves better than that, or at least a chance at it. We can't control every risk factor for serious illness, and trying to minimise some factors like obesity or alcohol addiction can be a daily struggle, but that doesn't mean we don't try.

Victoria is wanting to challenge this very damaging assumption of what constitutes beauty. I think Babs is a clear example of why this needs to change
I agree with you.
Ok as I said pages ago obesity isn't great but don't waste your life hating yourself, she mad a good point if you except it your less likely to feel guilty and binge, you lose the shame and shame holds you back.
Babs was beautiful inside and out, It really upset me how much time she spent hating herself.
There is an element of truth in love yourself.
Victoria was extreme but made a few good points. I say this as a skinny

The problem is that 95% of people who don’t will Regina the weight they lost (FACT)
A high percentage will gain more on top (FACT)

Diets don’t work.

So there has to be another way.

If you look at the 5% of people who DO keep weight off a high number will have discovered exercise in a big way. They do more than exercise, they train their bodies. They nourish their bodies for the that training and they quickly forget dieting.

Eat more (choose 80% nutrient dense food)
Move more (set step goals, find exercise you love and push yourself)

I am at risk of diabetes as I have PCOS. My blood sugars dropped massively over a year once I started exercising. I lost no weight at all but I know my body fat levels changed as I fitted into clothes I hadn’t previously. My body shape changed and I lost inches ...all without shedding an ounce it weight.

Over the past year my weight has slowly decreased...am about 18lbs lighter than a year ago. My blood sugars remain normal, my BP remains normal.

So in future I may remain overweight ....but I am fit and getting fitter.

As someone struggling with weight (for over 25 years, almost certainly due to OCD and an eating disorder), I can honestly say I know how to look after other people! I know what is healthy to eat and what is not. I limit the sweets my kids get.

Yet something in me is faulty when it comes to stopping myself over indulging! no amount of dressing it up will change it.

I need to find the off switch!

Victoria really helped me because I never want to be as deluded about weight gain etc. I don't care if i am beautiful or not, I want to live a healthy life. Obese people may die early but we also suffer while alive, just basic walking up hills, walking up stairs etc.

I thin genuine body positivity and self love comes from primarily wanting to care for and nurture oneself. To love your curves, to love the food you eat but to be mindful that too much of any kind of food is harmful. Genuinely if you eat too much of any sort of food you will end up in trouble! So loving yourself if being mindful of what you put in your body, while loving your body (however it looks) at the same time.

Now I just gotta remember this every time i am faced with food choices!

If Channel 4 are reading this I think Babs needs her own show, so does @SLB37. if she wants it, and Del too"

I do think Victoria has done the body positive movement a huge disservice here. Completely misinterpreting/twisting what it is about.

The message is to love the body you are in. Its not political ffs. Its really not that complicated. We have one life to enjoy.

The whole health thing is a separate issue. I am fat. I accept that I'm fat. I consider myself 'body positive' - I don't hide my body because I feel its some kind of inferior exterior.
I wear what I like to wear, and what I'm comfortable wearing (which is not swimsuits outdoors in Blighty on the high street I might add. )

It does not mean I am not aware of my health. I'm not healthy. I wasn't particularly healthy when I had a 'normal' BMI and I'm still not healthy, but the risk factors are higher now, so whilst I won't apologise for being fat, I don't pretend that it doesn't affect me healthwise, and I won't stop trying to shrink myself. I'm just trying to be less drastic about it these days (I had an eating disorder for 25 years.)

Its worth pointing out that Courtney herself said that scenes were heavily edited and many of their opinions therefore omitted. Not surprising as that's how TV shows work. She was actually very good friends with both Victoria and Babs as they shared a room, although she disagreed with Victoria on a few major points. (She said this on a fbgroup I'm on)

I do think though that Victoria was given so much airtime because she is so controversial. You need someone like that, otherwise it would be dull. I wonder if she really believes all the crap she spouts. She seems extremely deluded and so dismissive of others thoughts and feelings.

sentient

Victoria lost any credibility she may have had when she stated that health was a 'social construct'.

For all the body positivity love your curves rhetoric being pushed by her it was a simple observation by Del, the nice Indian chap that brought some sanity to proceedings who pointed out that when these young people get to his age and start feeling pains in their chest and other quality of life degrading health issues they might reconsider their views.

sentinent
I have no doubt you sincerely believe what you say but I have 2 questions...

1. Have you been brainwashed by attended one of Victoria's seminars?
2. How did you come to believe that stuff?

Oh and one more...
3) Are you 'speaking for' Victoria?

I do not know precisely what she died of, but I do know she had weight related health issues.

No, no, no, no, no MoanRanger - there is no such thing as "health issues". "Health" does not exist. It is a social construct. (From "The World According to Victoria")

Babs is a wonderful lady - her story about having to put her baby daughter up for adoption when she was a teenager was heartbreaking. She is obviously still heartbroken by the loss of her child - it is just as much a bereavement as a death. She isn't a highly-educated woman, but is a highly intelligent one, and very sensible, too. She didn't let Victoria intimidate her with her bullshit psychobabble, or bully her with her persistence.

As others have mentioned, Victoria deliberately misrepresented what Babs said to the girl with the blue hair - I think she said that Babs said she was "repulsive" - and she had said no such thing. It was a cruel remark to make to her and a horrible slur on Babs.

Del, and the other lad - the comedian - were a breath of sanity compared to Victoria's wankery.

I would agree that you cannot equate morality/goodness with adiposity or lack thereof. However, Victoria's science denial, and her double standards were abhorrent. She talked about "good" and "bad" fatties, but went on about how healthy she was and all the activities she did. She criticised Jack and Dell's exercise, but went swimming. She described a "fat scale" which was really very offensive and hurtful (particularly to Sarah). This was interesting to me; surely you don't need to have a scale of larger than bodies? But she seemed to like the hierarchy.

The fat scale was vile! Victoria liked the hierarchy because she was "small to medium fast" , whereas the other girl's - particularly the blue-haired girl (Sarah?) was "superfat". Victoria was a snide, spiteful, patronising piece of work.

Baby lady was lovely - and little Emily was an absolute delight!

*fat, not fast

Elodie2019
No I have not attended one of Victoria's seminars nor am I speaking for her lol. It really shouldn't matter who the messenger is. Challenge the ideas.

I think it is important to think these questions through without reacting emotionally. My immediate response upon watching the programme was to dismiss most of what Victoria said. I went to bed so sure that she was wrong. It's annoying to me that I woke up bright and too early thinking about the programme.

Practically everyone in this thread is repeating the same mainstream/acceptable ideas without questioning whether they are right.

Is it not true that the fatter you are the more discrimination you're likely to face?

Is it not true that we're more accepting of an obese person if they demonstrate they are doing all the 'right' things rather than lounging around and stuffing their faces with whatever they want. I know it's true for me. I immediately observe what is in the shopping trolley of an obese person or tut tut when I see them eat pizza, chocolate or fizzy drinks. Give them a pass if they're eating leaves.

You cannot assume that because someone is carrying extra weight their body is diseased. It was demonstrated plainly on the programme when the young man's blood test showed no sign of ill health. When he is older things are likely to change because he is older. The biggest risk factor for most modern diseases is old age.

I don't agree with many of Victoria's points (e.g intuitive eating) nor do I think people who are overweight/obese should be discouraged from losing weight and exercising (this is self care too). Her zeal for body positivism got up my nose but It is refreshing to see someone challenge our negative assumptions which are doing harm to others. Look how hard she works to keep her mental health in check because she knows most people find her size unappealing. Why are we more concerned with the fat rather than the mental health? It isn't really because we care; it's because most of us find it ugly. Yet we disguise this disgust behind a cloak of concern for their physical health. Victoria is saying she's not having any of it. She finds beauty in her fat body and wish that all who are fat refuse the self flagellation and denial of living life fully. She certainly inspired me to get out there more rather than worry that I'm getting in the way of people with my rollator or apologising for my disability.

I don't think Victoria does find beauty in her fat body. I think she denies, even to herself, that she is unhappy about it - otherwise why did she take every opportunity to point out that the other girls were bigger than she is?

That's her business, though - what she should NOT be doing is trying to stop other people from doing something about their size if they are unhappy about it. Obesity does set the sufferer up for increased risk of many diseases; it also increases the likelihood of someone dying on the operating table if they have to have surgery - and which of us can guarantee that we'll never be in an accident? It impacts our breathing and our mobility, it affects our sleep and leaves us exhausted - both because we aren't getting proper rest and because we are carrying around a lot of unnecessary weight.

Yes - there will be people who reach an old age in a comparatively healthy condition even though they are obese. In the same way, there are people who smoke 60 a day for 50 years and don't suffer adverse effects - yet we know that smoking massively increases the risk of heart and lung disease, as well as strokes and gangrene.

To deny the risks is stupid. To persuade others to deny the risks is borderline criminal.

a bit of post with regard to the fat issue, but was the sensible pretty blonde lady breast feeding her baby? i think i saw a nursing cover but i wasnt sure. if she was i just wanted to say well done for doing it on a tv show, i hope your journey is a happy one and shows that all size boobs small or large can bf. theres a lot of misinformation about breast size and feeding. if you are combi/bottle feeding i hope i didnt offend you and you are still doing awesome!!!!

The 2 people i found very irratating were Victoria and Babz, Victoria, obviously cons, lunatic, and quite toxic, noticeably smaller than the rest i think it made her feel 'privileged' to be less fat than the rest. its likely she doesn't have the eating disorders the others do. Babz was obviously in a bad place and i did sympathize initially but i didn't like the fact she seemed to require a lot of emotional support but gave non to anyone else, she was quite judgemental particularly unkind to Courtney.

I liked Jed, Del and the blonde new mum, sorry didn't catch her name.

When you are overweight, very overweight, you are unhealthy and should try and do something about it - we all know that.

The problem isn't telling overweight people that their shape is okay, it's when skeletally underweight models and actresses are held up as the ideal so people of perfectly normal healthy weight are made to feel fat.

It's all a bit fucked up!!

I agree with the pp who referred to the "pretty, sensible blonde lady". The one who works for Obesity UK. I really liked her. And her baby is super-cute!! (And I'm not someone who usually goes gooey for babies!)

Does anyone know where one could get one of those DNA tests? I'd be interested to know if I had the risky genes. I've certainly struggled with my weight over the years. Currently 14st and only 5ft2.

I know it's true for me. I immediately observe what is in the shopping trolley of an obese person or tut tut when I see them eat pizza, chocolate or fizzy drinks. Give them a pass if they're eating leaves.

Sure, there are people out there like you who look at what others are buying in the supermarket or what they have on their plate and tut tut.

Do you really spend time doing this?
If you do, I judge you for that. You might think about winding your neck in. It's not a good look.