Handmaid's Tale. EPISODE 5 (season 3). Channel 4, 07/07/19. UK pace. NO SPOILERS!

[OriginofSpecies]

Nice early thread to start the discussion for Episode 5 tonight.

We are watching Channel 4, UK Pace.

We have only seen episodes 1 - 4 so far.

Please, NO SPOILERS.

June will be in danger if it is officially revealed that Nick is the father. I'm not sure how this will play out.

The Lawrence's are a very interesting couple and I want to see more of them and the resistance. I'm quite fed up of smarmy Fred and "poor Serena". She could have stayed in Canada and had a happy life without the risk of losing any fingers. She's frustrating me really.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel I’d hope that too. I’m just thinking of international pressure - they said they’d broadcasted worldwide. In the book Canada were returning Gileadeans on request. I can picture loads of international pressure on them / but then...wouldn’t that be acknowledging Gilead as a state?

It might have been very clever of June to send that recording saying Nick is the father (possibly to the detriment of Nick and June though!!)

I suppose really Nichole would be a ward of the state. Perhaps Luke is her appointed foster carer. He has obviously taken her for medical check ups so she is on record in Canada and officially with Luke. It’s not like he just kept her.

Legally, iirc (now and here), any children born to a wife in marriage are automatically legally counted as offspring of the husband? Unless there is some sort of legal faff to say they aren't his. Canada will accept the validity of June and Luke's marriage - unlike Gilead - therefore Nichole is legally Luke's responsibility unless it is determined otherwise.

Serena and Fred would also be in the shit if it gets out about Nick being the dad. I think it’a all part of a bigger, cleverer plot. Gilead is falling apart and June is making that happen. The thing with the Lawrences is about making them remember their lives before Gilead. Bombing and violence by the resistance hasn’t worked so far - all those Marthas hanged for “heresy” last episode. They have to be better than that. If the commanders at the perceived top (ie Lawrence) start doubting themselves then maybe that’s better. Fred is all about appearances. He’s being nicer to Serena because June told him last time that it would get her back on side if he involved her more. He can’t allow it to look like his household is still in disarray. I don’f think that Serena is on board with it at all. She has the phone now (is that what was in the package marked “if it will help” or something? In her bag on the plane) She was clearly flying in a goods plane not a passenger plane so not sure who would have organised that on the Canada side and how.

I liked this episode. When Luke let Serena hold Nicole though I was convinced he was going to get seized.

Would the authorities in Gilead admit that June is the biological mother or is there a chance that they would insist that Serena is her mother (biological or by consensual adoption)?

All the Canadian authorities know is what Emily told them about the baby when she arrived.

If they do DNA tests to confirm paternity I suppose they will want/need June's DNA too.

I was really hoping Serena would stay. Hopefully she may yet.

I enjoyed the episode but won't be able to cope if Nicole gets returned to Gilead!

For an appeal to Canada, June's presence doesn't seem logical

I suppose it's because Gilead knows there are people in Canada who know she's the birth mother and want it to look like she also wants her back. As far as they know, the phone call with Luke is the only contact - though I assume they have spies in Canada and must have a fair idea that Emily made it there with the baby. I agree this is all rather tenuous, mind you.

A couple of terms I think are being misused:

Trade Deal - an agreement between nations to ease trade by reducing WTO tariffs on specific goods. The lack of a trade deal doesn't stop trade.

What is affecting Gilead is not the absence of a trade deal but economic sanctions which have been imposed by the international community, forbidding all trade with Gilead as a censure consequence of their human rights violations.

An extradition treaty is an agreement between nations not to be a place of refuge for one another's criminals. Back before the EU sorted this out, the UK had no extradition treaty with Spain so UK criminals could escape there and be beyond the reach of the law. Extradition law would be relevant for Emily - her refugee status doesn't make her immune to prosecution for murder, assault and kidnap but she would still be protected as she would be likely to face the death penalty.

Extradition law is not (afaik. ianal) relevant to whether Nichole would be returned. Nichole is a minor and not a criminal. Her refugee status will have been granted on the grounds that as a female she is likely to suffer persecution on the basis of sex in Gilead. Her refugee status is not in any doubt - she would no more be returned to Gilead than a Jewish baby would have been returned to Hitler's Germany having been smuggled out. It simply wouldn't happen - but that's nothing that would be affected by an extradition treaty.

Another thought on the broadcast to Canada... surely just by having June there it is a threat to return Nichole? They are saying... here is the handmaiden and we can do what we want with her unless we get Nichole back.

I wondered if they had her there to show the rest of the world that she’s in on it - that she’s a willing part of the process. They put her in a brand new, smarter outfit too. Reminiscent of the propaganda films made by the nazis to show that everyone in concentration camps were happy, healthy and safe.

Still can't see why Serena didn't leap at the chance to stay in Canada, even if she had to face legal proceedings. It would still be better than life in Gilead.

I didn't actually realise that tyhe 'mobile phone' in Serena's bag was a phone - I thought it was a bomb! Even the backing music sort of went off like a bomb (into the ads!) but I thought - why would she blow herself and a plane up? One plane, 3-4 people? Then I realised it was a phone - and it probably means that this will be an explosive part of the series in the future.

I also thought Serena would stay in Canada - except she was probably well aware that she is being watched, listened to, got surveillance on her every minute she was there. There is a reason she came back.

(I also thought that when she was holding Nicole, that she and the baby would be snatched and bundled away back to Gilead so quickly that no-one would have a chance to resist. I held my breath until the next scene!)

I'm not surprised that Serena didn't stay in Canada. There's nothing for her there. She'll have no access to Nicole. All the other people she (once) loved are in Gilead. If there's any hope for Serena's character doing anything positive now, it's helping to bring down the regime - from the inside. She has literally nothing to lose (unlike June who has Hannah).

Does Serena know that the child is Nick's? She must suspect even if it's not definite

Seems very odd that she would have called her Nicole if she was aware it was Nick's. Less odd for June to do so, anyway (iirc Holly was June's choice of name)

I really hope that Serena's decision to go back to Gilead doesn't signify a return to 'Mrs Waterford' as she was before (evil to June etc). Now that she has totally lost Nicole she could harden to June and turn her back on any kind of alliance, and throw herself back into Gilead. Fred said "it doesn't have to be over" as he met her off the plane and the next thing, the TV appeal is taking place which seems to imply it was Serena's choice...

She called her Nichole to taunt Fred. They both know Nick is the father. But Fred didn’t know that Serena knew I don’t think and something had happened between Fred and Serena, I remember a big row when they were searching for June before she had Nichole. Calling her Nichole was Serena's way of kicking Fred in the guts by having him reminded that Nichole wasn’t his baby.

I think Holly was June's mums name.

Re Serena, I thought her being nasty to Luke was showing that she has gone back to her horrible nastiness (when she physically held June down when pregnant and fighting back when Fred raped her). I don't think Serena will do anything to bring down Gilead at all and June is foolish to trust her in any way whatsoever.

I was hoping that June would scream in the background for help but I guess she couldn't as Hannah is still at risk. I presume as Luke now knows the baby isn't Waterford's, he would demand a paternity test and so Nicole would not be returned to Fred.

So stressful!

I was amazed they did the appeal live. That was far too risky. Especially after springing it on June like that, knowing her history, and without anyone having warned her with what were the consequences of her acting out. They took a big chance there.

Initially I thought Serena chose to return to Gilead as otherwise June wouldn't be protected/in danger. But I'm not sure what's going to happen next. I think Emily may be in trouble as she's not suddenly immune from her voilent crimes (no matter how justified) now she is in Canada.

It's still moving a bit slowly and all a bit disjointed.

Sorry love June's rage face 😡

I really like this episode. To me, it was a study of three couples separated by distance and/or emotion and reunited in some way by a mix tape and/or a common goal.

Mrs Lawrence wants the man she fell in love back (and possibly the destruction of Gilead). She remembered the mix tapes, and they listened to one together - an illegal act.
Serena wants Nichole back (and possibly the destruction of Gilead). She went to Canada and then possibly conspired against her husband on return - she's smart and disillusioned enough to know how their tv appeal looks to Canada.
June wants total destruction of Gilead and freedom for her daughters. Her mix tape to Luke is a way to that.

Apologies to those who haven't read the book, but I have a theory. The Commanders do face the consequences of some actions at some point. It is likely that, upon learning of Nichole's true parentage, June could be questioned and claim Nick raped her. Serena owes June a favour, and this could be an opportunity to back June up in this claim. Nick could be purged. His actions as an Eye/double agent are dubious at best, and could bring about the first round of purges that eventually sees the end of Gilead.

That's all wildly speculative and probably utterly wrong, but I cant help but thinking that any reveal about Nichole's parentage will be devastating for more than just the Waterfords.

I think Serena's coming to terms with the fact that she's lost Nicole, and that's why she says to Fred that she wants it to be over. Fred's the one driving it - the appeal film, raising it with the other commanders - because his political stock is sinking, and he sees an opportunity in it. He doesn't care about Nicole or Serena, beyond how they can be useful to him. Commander Lawrence told June she was 'so transactional', only interested in people in terms of how she can benefit from them, but that seems to be what Gilead does to everyone.