The Nights Watch: GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8 EPISODE 4. May 6th UK. SPOILERS AFTER 2 am.

[OneInAMillionYou]

Hail survivors of The Battle of Winterfell.

The 'mysterious' episode 4 premieres tonight.

Who will be with us at 2am?

I am desperate to find out if Arya's kill is openly discussed and acknowledged, or does Bran take the credit, or does it remain a mystery.

Given Emilia Clarke has said Episode 5 is the one for which we will need 'bigger television screens' what will lead up to it?

I am still bemused how little in show mentions there are of the blowing up the sept that and Arya's massacre of the Freys. Those are actions that would have had major political and social impact as they involve the wiping out of whole families (and bystanders and a religious order in the case of the sept). Yet aside from Oleanna talking about her family, no one unconnected seems to have speculated or commented on the impact. I think someone said in another thread that Jaimie did mention the Freys but I don't remember that.

I know they can't give time to everything in the show but they have characters like Gendry and Jaimie who were in king's landing when the sept blew up but there hasn't been even a passing reference by them or questions to them about a major loss of innocent lives and a leading religious figure...

It was annulled in the show I think. It was glossed over in all of 5 seconds so I don't remember the wording. In the books I can't see it ever being annulled as both Tyrion and Sansa are on the run.

If Dany is "the mad Queen", what is Cersei?
I don't think Cersei has ever been 'mad' in the same way Dani has the potential to be. Everything Cersei does is to protect her family/legacy or herself. I don't think she was failing to think straight when she blew up the sept, she definitely wasn't hearing voices, she did it to protect herself, kill all her enemies in one place, like she should have done with Dani.

I do quite like the idea that Cersei is the ice (hate) and Dani is the fire (desire).

I’m really confused that people think Dany becoming the ‘mad queen’ is lazy writing.
I think there is a LOT of lazy writing, particularly in the last 2 seasons, but this isn’t it.
It’s been pretty obvious from the beginning that there was a big chance this would happen.
A coin is flipped every time a Targaryen is born, greatness and madness.

I do quite like the idea that Cersei is the ice (hate) and Dani is the fire (desire)
This reminds me of a part of the book where Tyrion is comparing Cersei to Tywin.
He said that Cersei likes to think of herself as a female Tywin ‘Tywin with teats’, but whereas Tywin was cool ace ice, Cersei and her temper were pure wildfire.

whereas Tywin was cool ace ice, Cersei and her temper were pure wildfire.
That's true I remember that too. It's from this poem that GRRM apparently took a lot of inspiration from-
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

I do think Cersei is a bit mad. She is supposed to love her children, but love shouldn't be blind and Joffrey was dangerous, to others and to himself. She is arguably responsible for the death of Tommen.

However, ironically, Tyrion ("I know you love your children") started the train of events that lead to Myrcella's death. If only for this, I think it's possible to understand why she hates Tyrion.

I have a lot of sympathy for her as somebody who has been treated badly purely because she is female. She knows that she is just as good as Jamie, but because of her sex she is sold off like a breeding cow. I can also understand that, in the circumstances, she would feel great bitterness towards the person who she blames for her mother's death. Perhaps her mother could have protected her from some of Tywin's worst impulses.

I just don't really buy the 'she acts like this for her children' line. The characters claim that this is true, but her actions don't demonstrate it.

"Jaime".

Also, you don't employ a person like Qyburn without having lost all connection to your moral compass.

But on the other hand Stannis burned his daughter - can't remember - was he supposed to have gone mad?

I’m really confused that people think Dany becoming the ‘mad queen’ is lazy writing
Sorry to spam but meant to say I also agree with this. Dorne was lazy writing, Euron & Iron Islands was lazy writing, the suicide squad going to capture a wight was lazy writing. We've known Dani will go mad almost as long as we've known Jons parentage, it had to happen and I think GRRM is responsible for it, not D&D.

I do think Cersei is a bit mad. She is supposed to love her children, but love shouldn't be blind and Joffrey was dangerous, to others and to himself.
She did try to tame Joffrey though and she did know he was a bad egg, but when it comes to your children, love is blind and to Cersei more so. She is a cruel, manipulative, cold and callus bitch, but she definitely loves her children. It's what gives her character dimensions and relatability.
I think though she maybe has more of Tywins view by this point, when she talks about family she means the Lannister legacy, she only cared about her children and he only cared about the legacy surviving. Now that her children are gone I think she is a Tywin with teats, only not as clever and with much less patience and rationale.

Just to reiterate, NO ONE HAS POSTED LEAKS OR SPOILERS ON HERE. There has been general discussion about the fact that they exist, but no one has written anything on here that reveals anything apart from their general opinion on the potential crap-ness of the ending.

Thank you @WeirdCatLady I was too scared to read the posts from last night incase someone had let something slip.

Dany going mad is not lazy writing. There has been a huge amount of seeding for it in both books and show, but many fans of hers just fail to see it.

I always refer back to her vision in the house of the undying:

“three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .”

The use of ‘to’ and not ‘for’ is very important here; fire is what Dany will come to love. GRRM’s use of words is very careful.

The visions in the house of the undying foretell almost the entire story - although they are bit like the Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter and are much easier to interpret in retrospect.

I’m a huge Dany fan and I can’t think of a better way for her to go out than as a Mad Queen. She’s the last full blood Targaryen.

If Dany doesn’t end up happily sitting on the iron throne then I think the only other options are a) she dies heroically or b) she goes mad queen and is killed. Happily being queen is doubtful and heroic death unlikely (too conventional) so I think mad queen is most likely. Doesn’t she need one more betrayal, once for love? Or is that the books

“three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .”
Is this said in the show too?

What about the Throne room being covered in snow? Could it represent Jon/the North? I know people think it could be ashes from a fire, but it looks like snow to me.

Every time I think of Pyat Pree I just hear "mother of dragons" in his Scottish voice, so funny. I'm allowed to say this because I'm Scottish 😜

one more betrayal, once for love? Or is that the books

Yes, that is book only. However, the books and the show are going to end in more or less the same way, so if she is betrayed in the books (particularly by a main character) then it is likely going to happen in the show too and vice versa.

I think they will all die and the Prince of Dorne will ride in and take the throne.

It will be like the end of Hamlet. They mentioned Prince of Dorne in the last episode to lay the ground work. Probably his name is Fortinbras Dorne.

Yeah who the fuck is the new prince of Dorne supposed to be?

D&Ds engagement with Dorne gives me the rage. Beyond ‘sexy sand snakes’ it’s like the biggest afterthought in history. Every so often they’ll throw it into conversation to remind us it exists. That’s all. Why bother?

If Dany doesn’t end up happily sitting on the iron throne then I think the only other options are a) she dies heroically or b) she goes mad queen and is killed. Happily being queen is doubtful and heroic death unlikely (too conventional) so I think mad queen is most likely.

This. We know it won’t be Dany happily sitting on the throne at the end - because that would be too much like “and they all lived happily ever after under the rule of Queen Daenerys” And this is a GRRM story. Plus that won’t be a definitive ending - there could just be another contest for the throne in a few years. (Personally I think all the 7 kingdoms will end up independent).

I think if she was going to die heroically it would have been in the battle for Winterfell - that would have been a classic l GOT game changer, but it didn't happen.

So I reckon she’ll go mad (which has been building as an option since the very beginning) and will be killed.

I think she will be killed by Jon for 3 reasons - 1) Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa etc. 2) the Lord of Light brings people back to serve a purpose. I can’t think what else his purpose would be - if it was NK related wouldn’t he’d be dead now? 3) “the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword” - he’s too honourable for any other option.

Also if she is due a betrayal for love then he is pretty much the only one left who loves her. Only other candidate I can think of would be Grey Worm.

Yeah who the fuck is the new prince of Dorne supposed to be?

The Martells are done for, I presume bastards can’t inherit? Plus the remaining bastards are all girls I think so not a Prince of Dorne. Must be the head of one of the senior houses?