James Bulger - New Revelations

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

Just watching this - wondered if anyone else was interested in discussing it

red if we don't have discussions around how things like this happen then they will continue to happen.

I'm not trying to find excuses - I'm seeking reasons - what they did was horrific - beyond comprehension - but by saying "They are Evil" we're actually just brushing the problem under the carpet and ignoring it.

If we say "WHY are they Evil? Or perhaps, better "Why did two CHILDREN do this EVIL THING?" we, as a society, might be able to get to the root cause and reduce the chances of it happening again.

Blaming and shrugging off don't help, though they are very natural reactions. It is very hard to look at it - not just because the facts themselves are so upsetting, but because it means that we, as a society, have to take a degree of responsibility for what happened.

Why were these abusing children abused? Why did it go unnoticed (or at least, unreported and enacted upon)? Why did the adults who queried them when they were walking along with a crying baby so really accept their explanations? (I very possibly would have done myself - I'm not blaming these people, just wondering why the thing that triggered their question didn't push them to take it further) I think this is particularly so when they answered at one point (from what I recall of the original case - it wasn't in the programme) "He's lost - we're taking him to the police station"* What stopped the people who got that explanation from saying "Good lads - come on, I'll come with you and you can tell the police where you found him." or something similar? What was it about them, the situation, their glib responses, that caused people to back away and not investigate further?

These are all serious questions. How did those people feel later when they found out what had happened? Are they tortured with guilt? I would be - I'd go over and over it in my mind - "If only . . . ". But what was it about the situation that allowed it even to get as far as it did?

James Bulger's parents are still in hell. Nothing will ever mitigate their pain. But unless we can find causes, and hopefully, develop interventions, then this will continue to happen - and to be honest, I think it will happen with increasing frequency until it becomes almost commonplace, because we live in an increasingly fractured society in the sense that people don' know even their neighbours as well as they did, things can happen behind closed doors which damage children, children are exposed to violence on TV and in video games which desensitises them, and bullying - physical and emotional - is commonplace.

*If I'm wrong about this, I apologise, but it's something that is in my mind related to this case - that they told at least one person that they were taking James to the police station.

Not discussing it (and by that, I don't mean glorying in the horror - I mean sensibly looking at the facts round the case) we actually abdicate our own responsibility.

After James's murder they were treated to conditions far better than other innocent children received yet one still repeatedly offends

I watched the documentary this morning. I felt at the time of the terrible crime and feel even more so that it was wrong to name the two boys. What was the point? Also they should not have been tried as adults.

I don't think i want to watch this one, but i did watch the last one where they talked of the norwegian murders. It left me feeling incredibly sad for all. Thompson and Venables actions were evil but they weren't born that way. I know there was a lot of unreported things about this case. But the way the case was handled was appalling, I understand the anger and remember the anger at the time.

I hadnt realised one of them was abused in his detention centre, more adults reinforcing the same. We will never know if Thompson truly feels remorse and if he does it must be very difficult for him not to speak up and tell the world every time it crops up again in the news.

I don't know what the right answer would have been, its just an incredibly sad, sad case.

I don't think we, the general public can really say why they did it or whether they are deserving of rehabilitation, because as the documentary said, we still don't really know what happened, and no one has really looked into it publicly.

Alot of info has come out, but we don't know what is true and what isn't. According to RT's parole hearing statement, they were just going to get they boy lost, then for some reason they turned on him violently. But reports from the time said it was planned and had a sexual element. There has been alot said about the boys home lives but we don't know what is true.

Based on what we do know, I think we can assume that RT is not a psychopath as he has not offended again. One psychopathic act, no matter how evil it may be, does not make you a psychopath. I think he was probably a product of his environment and probably didn't really understand what he was doing at the time. He asked the police if they would take Jamie to the hospital to make him alive again. Based on his age at the time, I can't see why we wouldn't at least try to rehabilitate him.

JV is more of an enigma. He seemed to have a more normal upbringing, and showed remorse and cried at the time. But, teachers also said he was a strange and troubled child and would often turn on the water works. I think JV seems more likley to have some sort of personality disorder, and based on the limited info we had about him, he should probably be locked up for life. He's a pedophile that brags to othere about his crime. For me that's enough to have him locked up for life. Clearly rehabilitation hasn't worked with him.

Personally I find the system they have in the USA of locking up minors for life very harsh and I'm glad we don't take that approach here.

We will never know if Thompson truly feels remorse and if he does it must be very difficult for him not to speak up and tell the world every time it crops up again in the news. If there were any doubts I'm sure that he would not have been released.

I would recommend anyone interested in this case read the book The Sleep of Reason, which is intelligent and sensitive.

The fact is that we've never known who did what and who led who. The only real physical evidence of who committed the abuse of James was a shoe print of Bobby Thompson's on James's cheek. Such as it is, the limited circumstantial evidence is that Jon was the leader - it was Jon's idea to "get a kid lost", Jon made the failed approaches to other small children.

Interestingly the writer of The Sleep of Reason pegs Jon as the more disturbed one long before the revelations about his adult offences came out. He had previous for assaulting other children (he had strangled a classmate with a ruler) and several of his teachers had been concerned about him. Bobby Thompson was an accomplished liar and known shoplifter but he wasn't known for being violent. However, it seems he has always been presumed to be the "leader" based on the Thompson family's reputation locally, mostly earned by his older brothers.

People have also read Jon's confession as having great weight - but he said, remember, "I did kill him", not "We did kill him".

Re: parents. Bobby Thompson senior had long fucked off leaving Ann Thompson raising seven boys having had a severely abusive childhood herself. The older boys had a trail of suicide attempts, crime, time in secure units and were thought to have bullied and abused the younger boys, including Bobby. Jon had the more apparently stable background but there were some serious issues there too.

The author of The Sleep of Reason also makes the point that this case is not actually as unusual as people think, by cataloguing the many case that have come before the court of young children having been found to have murdered someone (and there are undoubtedly more where it never came to court or was never proven). The unusual thing about this case was not children killing (who almost always kill younger children) but the public response and the fact that the boys were tried as adults.

Thank you for your comments and the book recommendation Zack.

I'll try to get hold of that.

I think Robert Thompson was assumed to be the more culpable of the two because his affect (unemotional, silent) was thought to be less age- appropriate than that of Venables (crying, denying responsibility) and people thought that he was "mental". There was also a lot of emphasis on how chaotic and abusive Thompson's home life was, whereas Veneables was (at least initially) reported to have come from a "normal" background. Thompson was also considered to be highly intelligent, and Venables not very bright, so it was assumed that Thompson was the ringleader.

I found it interesting that the people who had most to do with the two of them regarded Venables as the more dangerous of the pair. And that he is the one who is known to have re-offended - more than once.

Kitten

The social worker who sold that story to the DM should be charged with breach of confidentiality IMO. No information should be issued via incendiary rags like that.

Just greed - wanting to cash in on the Bulgers' pain.

I've always been haunted by this case.

When it happened my dd was the same age as little James and my heart broke for the parents.

It is one of those cases that I wish I had never heard about and still find triggering but at the same time still feel compelled to learn why. This thread is saddening but important and actually I'm glad it was raised so thank you to Schadenfreude.

Dangly, I feel the same. One of those cases that I wish I ever heard about but feel compelled to watch these programmes. We also live in a social media world, we didn’t in 1993. Only newspapers and the news on tv.
To be honest before I became a parent, it was just another murder( I know that sounds harsh) but since having a child I just can’t imagine the pain of this happening to any parent.Seeing little James picture really chokes me up to this day.
I just can’t work out how anyone( including 10 year old boys) could take a child on a two mile walk and then decide to murder them. I mean they had little James with them for about 3 hours . They must have really hated him to turn on him. It’s just beyond comprehension.
I also wonder how people made those decisions about releasing them in the first place. Given that they would have had access to the case and it’s details.I guess that’s why I couldn’t work on a parole board.
It’s one of those cases I try to put to the back of my mind, but as this year it’s been the 25th anniversary, it’s obviously been on a few programs.

Thank you Dangly.

Some of the comments on here made me feel that I must look as though I was trying to make excuses for these two boys, and I'm really not.

I can understand how people find it so dreadful that they can't bring themselves to think about it and don't want it mentioned - but without further understanding the chances of it happening again are much higher.

I can also understand that people don’t want to think about this case( extremely disturbing) but I also feel that we owe it to James and his family to not forget him.
The people involved in this case, the police, forensics, lawyers must have had a really tough job.

I agree that there were 3 children that were victims and the way it was handled means we really don't know know why 2 children did something so evil to another child.

This morning the rape and murder is a child was on the news (trial date I think) - why is no-one baying for the blood of an adult murdering and taking a child but somehow It was justifiable for 2 x 10 year olds...

Somehow society is culpable in all of this

Years ago, I knew one of the lead reporters on the case and heard a lot about it that was never publicly reported.

And some of the details were really strange. One of those boys, no idea which, had some very peculiar ideas and quite clearly did not interpret reality in the way most children/people do.

That reporter thought one of them showed traits of psychopathy, and I kinda have to agree.

I think one of the saddest parts was one of the perpetrators asking if James had been fixed at the hospital and was alive again. Kind of put it into perspective that at 10 the finality of death isn't a reality and I suspect they didn't grasp the enormity of what they were doing.

It’s true adults commit murder of course. Ian Huntley, Ian Brady to name a few. And there was people baying for their blood too, my father once worked at a prison where Huntley was kept and saw him a few times.
Too me the whole tragedy was the waste of life. I mean absolutely nothing was to gain from James murder. Nothing at all. Nothing.

To think that three children lives were ruined that day breaks my heart. It really does. If only those passers could have stopped this from happening..

If only 8 year old children weren't left roaming the streets too afraid to go home, sneaking in after everyone asleep..,

It's all if only

Actually the few people I have known with truly abusive childhoods would never have murdered a child or baby. Robert Thompson should stop playing the victim and manipulating everyone around him. My sympathy is with poor little Jamie Bulger and his family.

True Random. Too many if onlys...just so tragic that little James innocently become a part of those boys warped game, that ended so tragically.
Maybe we’re looking for answers that don’t exist.

I don't think this case will ever be fully understood by anyone. That's what makes it an interesting discussion, sadly.

I feel this is also why James's parents can't ever move on. The whole thing is just unthinkable, yet it happened.

I'm not sure what the future holds for the two killers. I wonder if they can bring themselves to watch documentaries like this?

Random

If only 8 year old children weren't left roaming the streets too afraid to go home, sneaking in after everyone asleep

You are so right.

user1457017537 We all have tremendous sympathy for the Bulger family, and our hearts ache for little Jamie and the pain and terror and confusion he must have experienced - but sympathy is an empty emotion unless it is harnessed with an attempt to understand and learn from the dreadful things that have happened.

As far as I am aware, Robert Thompson is not "playing the victim". He is living his life - which will never be a normal life - and we don't know what his feelings are, or how he copes with them.

It may be that he doesn't give little Jamie a second thought - or it may be that he wakes up sobbing or screaming every night.

JediJim absolutely if ONLY someone had actually done what they nearly did! Not that they were to blame but you can't half wish! For everyone's sake and their own that they had done!

The pain of being the passer by who questioned but decided not to intervene i also cannot imagine.

And Schaden you are absolutely not making excuses! It would take a very simplistic mind to imagine you would raise a subject of this magnitude and think it 'making excuses'.

Can anyone think to 'make excuses' I imagine not, even RT and JV cannot!

There are always reasons though! These we need to know.

I do feel horrible for the innocent passers who almost intervened. They did nothing wrong.