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Howard's end

340 replies

Braceface · 12/11/2017 21:08

Anyone watching?

OP posts:
CourtneyLoveIsMySpiritAnimal · 29/11/2017 23:42

Haven't read the book and don't know if it's been explained, but how did Jacky and Leonard meet and get together? I get the impression she used to be a prostitute, is that right?

I do think the film Jacky was better cast. She looked a bit more 'blowsy'.

Battleax · 30/11/2017 00:06

I think it might be a spoiler to tell the whole story of how the Basta met just now.

Dialogue has been moved in chunks from one scene to another compared to the film version.

CourtneyLoveIsMySpiritAnimal · 30/11/2017 07:11

Ah right, thanks.

rizlett · 30/11/2017 07:53

I'm not sure Jackie is black in the tv version - she's from Cyprus and possibly has a Mediterranean skin type.

Battleax · 30/11/2017 07:56

Her father worked out in Cyprus and took his family along from England, didn't he?

southeastdweller · 30/11/2017 08:03

Definitely (and ludicrously) black in the TV version.

Battleax · 30/11/2017 08:06

The actress playing Jacky (m.imdb.com/name/nm7424185/?ref_=nmbio_bio_nm) was also in Harlots last year.

CourtneyLoveIsMySpiritAnimal · 30/11/2017 08:15

I loved Harlots! I thought I'd seen her before. I think she's too pretty and neat for Jacky though.

I've downloaded the book though so looking forward to seeing how Forster's description match up with the film and tv versions.

madeyemoodysmum · 30/11/2017 17:53

I always assumed Jackie was a prostitute as well.

oklookingahead · 30/11/2017 22:46

"Margaret is painted as so good and wise,"

In the book I thought so. One of the interesting things about the tv series is that I am not so convinced - or maybe I am older and more jaded!

She lets HW walk all over her and Aunt Juley about taking her away from Swanage (cf another pp view that it is her deciding to put the relationship first, he goes against her express wishes and she just goes along with it! AIBU beckons). But more importantly I thought she was surprisingly unsympathetic when Helen turned up with Leonard and Jacky. Jacky is obviously ill, and Meg talks to Leonard in very much a 'you're beneath us, it is wrong for you to come here in your station in life' tone. It was ok to have him for tea as a toy in her sitting room, but not ok when he intrudes in real life - she thinks he is, basically, not good enough.
Can't remember how the scene is portrayed in the book, but I was surprised how callous and snobby she seemed in that scene on tv.

wowfudge · 01/12/2017 10:14

I didn't think that - most of what she said was directed at Helen.

knittingwithnettles · 01/12/2017 13:53

I think it is just irritation with Helen; just as she is beginning to get some romantic time with Henry, Helen interrupts. It is embarassment too, I'm sure we have all felt that, when different sets of people we like bump into each other and hog our attention at the wrong moment - ie a needy friend wanting to burst into tears when you are in the middle of a professional situation. The point is, she is tested at this moment and found wanting, and later on, is not found wanting (spoiler alert), and puts her embarassment completely aside. I think it is very convincing as a picture of human nature. We start cowardly, and then get braver.

knittingwithnettles · 01/12/2017 13:56

You can read the book online at Literature online, completely free, in convenient chapters too, no pdfs...All his other books are on there free too.

knittingwithnettles · 01/12/2017 13:59

oops wrong, it is called the Literature Network or online literature.com no need for any password or log in, it is just all there....[Literature Online is something different]

diddl · 01/12/2017 14:55

I agree that it's irritation with Helen.

She's just starting to move on to a different phase of her life that she has decided to undertake & then is dragged back to trying to sort out Helen's mess-she's once again rushed headlong & not thought it through.

I do agree though that they both treated Bast as a toy.

Just a conversation with someone who they thought was "in the know" & they advise Leonard to act on it, with no thought/realisation at all of how precarious his position is.

Also yes, Henry telling Aunt Juley that they would leave even though she has said no-that is hard to reconcile.

Although he does work, so was it simply a case of then or never?

Abra1d · 01/12/2017 15:05

I love Hayley Atwell but am finding both sisters annoying. Sometimes they are quite brisk with people, insensitive and kind of faux ingenue. I know the book well and find them irritating in it, too. All this business of being amazed that people have to actually produce the rubber!

In a the TV series Mr W steals it for me, but not in the book. But I love MM.

Abra1d · 01/12/2017 15:06

Though I don’t remember the rubber being so heavily referred to in the book?

WineGummyBear · 01/12/2017 15:18

Does anyone know how many episodes there are to go?

Inkanta · 01/12/2017 15:21

'Jacky is obviously ill, and Meg talks to Leonard in very much a 'you're beneath us, it is wrong for you to come here in your station in life' tone. It was ok to have him for tea as a toy in her sitting room, but not ok when he intrudes in real life'

Yes that's how I read it. Very much talking down to them and believing they were inferior I thought. Not the open minded, kind and inclusive person she portrayed herself previously.

Battleax · 01/12/2017 15:23

Just one more, I believe, wine.

oklookingahead · 01/12/2017 15:27

"She's just starting to move on to a different phase of her life that she has decided to undertake & then is dragged back to trying to sort out Helen's mess-she's once again rushed headlong & not thought it through."

But it's not just Helen's mess - Meg is just as responsible for Leonard's situation as helen - in some ways she is more culpable because supposedly wiser, so she should have refrained from encouraging Leonard to leave the Porphyrion.

I do like the point though that Meg is found wanting on this occasion and then later is not - and also to be fair she does ask Henry just after the wedding to help Leonard. Yes Helen is awful. (Though actress is great.) Sorry Helen. Team Leonard!!!

diddl · 01/12/2017 16:03

I mean at Evie's wedding-it was entirely Helen's decision to take the Basts there & confront Henry-at his daughter's wedding!

oklookingahead · 01/12/2017 16:34

yes the decision to take them to Oniton on the day of the wedding is weird even for helen - is it 'i'm going to confront him with what he's done!' at play here? If she wanted to help she could of course just give him some of her money. (Or is it perhaps an element of moving the plot forwards - how else would Meg find out about Jacky?)

For me the main message of the book is that the rich are careless of the poor - whether they are Schlegel rich or Wilcox rich. But I don't think that was the author's aim really - wasn't he more interested in connecting prose and passion - what the Schlegels and Wilcoxes can teach each other?

diddl · 01/12/2017 16:47

Yes I think that it's just a plot device.

I don't think that it is weird for Helen though-being enamoured of the Wilcoxes, falling in love with Paul, then disliking them all!

When Meg tells her "only connect"-I keep thinking that it should refer to her thoughts & actions & thinking them through!

knittingwithnettles · 01/12/2017 19:25

It is referred to in the book, the Rubber, particularily later on when Wilcox is referred to having been taken forests from the natives for a few bottles of gin, and when she goes into his office before going down to Howard's End and there is a mention of how grand it all is. And Forster is pretty much obsessed with forests in general and dilapidations thereof.