Howard's end

[Braceface]

Anyone watching?

I just don’t understand why M wants to marry H.

SevenDown, I think Irene explains it very well.

I think the point is that Henry is quite emotionally warm - he is awkward and vulnerable around Margaret when he is about to propose as well as confident in other spheres. He was very fond of his previous wife and she of him, which surely is a kind of shorthand for the fact that he is someone who does connect with other people, even if he is foul to those he considers socially inferior. I think Margaret finds his neediness appealling, she doesn't just want to be dominated.

Also the way that Tibby and Helen are so careless and selfish and to all extents and purposes incredibly indolent and lazy (lying around all day amusing themselves) compares to Mr Wilcox dynamism. She is probably exhausted by doing everything for other people and feels like he is going to look after her.

I thought his interest in her was really quite poignant, like he wanted something that he couldn't quite understand, but still valued it intensely - Margaret's good sense and moral soundness and also the way she manages to be so close to her family members.

I didn't understand the first bit of the first episode, it felt utterly confusing, but then when you adapt to the pace it all makes sense.

I also like all the red slashes through it, like warnings!

I also liked the way they juxtaposed bits where Henry seems a bit selfish like when he insists she comes straight down to receive the guests at the wedding with him, when she wants to go for a wander..And then you think..actually it is quite selfish of her to imagine she can do what she wants all the time and NOT help him with the guests..it is as if she is learning lessons all the time too. The bit with her aunt, when she feels it is very insensitive to leave Swanage early, and he insists, again, you feel she is actually relieved to be told to put herself and her relationship first, for once, although there is ambiguity of his insensitivity toward others' feelings. It is as if she spends too much time worrying about others and not actually doing things, and making things happen.

He's not emotionally warm in the book and film, though, and that's one of the things that frustrates me about this version. But I agree about him being dynamic.

just re-read (after thirty years)the book online. It's brilliant. I don't think I understood it when I was 20, I must have just picked out the plot bits that matched the Merchant Ivory Film. I missed all the humour and the irony and the mysticism!

You are right that he is not "passionate" - he is portrayed as very conventional.

I've just watched episode 3. There was a lot more drama in this episode. Helen's behaviour was totally over the top but probably stemmed from her idealism. As far as she was concerned, Mr. W was responsible for the Basts' situation and he should fix it.

A few questions about tonight's episode.

(1) Who was the old woman at Howard's End? Mr. W said something about her being from the farm.

(2) Bast said that his brother was a lay reader. Anyone know what that is?

(3) Both Margaret and Helen seem to have a lot of freedom for women of that time. Surely they should have chaperones with them e.g. when Margaret inspects the London house with Mr. W and when Helen is alone with Bast?

(4) Am I right in thinking that Helen and Tibby didn't move into Mr. W's London house and continued to live at their old house? But I thought they were under pressure to move out?

Also, did anyone else spot the continuity error when Margaret and Helen were walking upstairs? Margaret was in front of Helen on the stairs but Helen walked into the bedroom first.

It made me wish I had been an Edwardian. I would love to swan about to concerts, write letters, stay at randoms lovely houses and wear long skirts. Appreciate I mean rich Edwardian being a poor one woudl have been crap

The sense of entitlement is hard to get your head round imv.
I think religion had something to do with this. If you went to church, worked hard, were a fine upstanding person (which is the image HW protrayed - though he got caught out about Jackie) you deserved what you had. The poor deserved less as they were lazier and did not respect God or the law.
Or else it was God's will - God deigned that you, in this life, will be weatlhy, and others people will be poor. Not your fault then.
This attitude is only just dying out today, come to think of it, because we can actually realise that if you are on minimum wage and zero hour contract, working as hard as you might makes little difference in the long run to your standard of living, in the UK.

It might be because they are German they are allowed to behave differently - going out alone - so it's assumed they have different rules.
Certainly in the street scenes many men are walking about but very few women.

Bast said that his brother was a lay reader.

Haven't googled but iirc, it's a ordinary person of the congregation who can conduct some of the services.

Margaret is attracted to Henry's masculinity. She is, in Edwardian terms, an old maid and although in her philosophy she is progressive, she becomes submissive to him, albeit somewhat reluctantly. She is passionate in philosophical terms and Henry has awoken her physical passion. In the book, if memory serves, she says that she has had proposals before but only from 'ninnies'.

One of the themes of the book is the beginning of the decline in Victorian society and the coming of a different age represented by the use of motor cars, city development, the increase in business and commerce. Mrs Wilcox provided a bridge between the two "worlds" and now Margaret may perhaps take on her mantle. The natural world means much to the Schlegel women and Aunt Juley - the Wilcoxes ride through it, own it etc. They are very concerned with image ('It's not the best part of Shropshire', said by Henry as he surveys the parkland beside the Oniton house).

Helen is young, idealistic and impetuous and has not sufficient maturity to see the damage caused by her well-meaning meddling. Leonard is desperate to better his life through reading, music etc but is dragged down partly because of the Schlegels and partly through his own naivety. Through him Forster describes the rigid class structure and the paternalistic attitudes of the bourgeoisie.

Evie and Dolly are the conventional counterpoints to Margaret and Helen. Surprised to see Evie sharing a cigarette with Charles! Can't remember that in the book.

"(3) Both Margaret and Helen seem to have a lot of freedom for women of that time. Surely they should have chaperones with them e.g. when Margaret inspects the London house with Mr. W and when Helen is alone with Bast?"

Margaret's visit to Mr W's house does feel a bit edgy, and it's clear from the atmosphere (in the TV series - can't remember this bit in the book) that it feels a bit transgressive for both of them, particularly as Margaret is visiting Mr W's house in the capacity of a decision-maker/head of the household. Wasn't Helen supposed to go along as well, but pulled out at the last minute?

Helen is supposed to be with Leonard and Jacky - she's only alone with Leonard because Jacky has gone to bed. Plus the whole episode of her dragging them to Shropshire involves her flouting social rules.

Both of these scenarios illustrate very well how the Schlegels don't operate conventionally for their time.

@Tatyocrisps, without spoiling it, the other two do go a separate way, explained in the next episode if I remember correctly.

The old lady is one of the women from a farm cottage who maintains the cottage while themWilcox’s are absent.

The Scheigle Father was a Libererian. He allowed his daughters to be educated, to join. In debates and also a lot more freedom than was normal for the time.

there is so much emphasis on the countryside in the book and olde England, not grand country houses but farmhouses from which people tended the land - once you read that in the book you begin to see why there are so many misty English garden/pastoral scenes in the adaptations

I enjoyed Sunday's episode and thought it was well-acted.

The only thing that was missing from the Jackie and Henry encounter was that there was surely an element of public exposure involved - other guests, family members and servants around. But this was filmed in isolation.

Mr Wilcox is so interesting, isn't he?

At the beginning when it was discovered that Mrs Wilcox had wanted Margaret to have HE, he was the only one saying that Margaret wouldn't have tried to coerce.

Mr Bast changing places-do we think that it was Mr Wilcoxes fault?

I'm not sure. In the book it seems more as if Margaret & Helen were talking hypothetically to him, although I get the impression that Mr Wilcox is trying to show off a bit as well.

It's very strange when you read it - it is almost as if E M Forster had fallen in love with Mr Wilcox himself, and desperately wants to have done with him because he knows Wilcox is a fraud deep down, hence the scene when she ...spoiler alert. But then the other thing which is strange is the way Margaret is painted as so good and wise, so much so that falling in love with Mr Wilcox is part of her "idea" of herself as this loving forgiving ideal woman (a bit like Mrs Wilcox)

it's not surprising this is difficult to convey cinematically! Anyway I am glad they made Mr Wilcox so attractive, makes it easier for the viewer to fall for him.

I see what you mean about the hypothetical questioning. They in fact are more obtuse than him, because they don't understand his reasons for giving an opinion, which is to impress them, and that is because he fancies Margaret, so in fact the whole thing is her fault! Everyone is at fault one way or another there is no end to the domino effect of everyone's actions

I think Mrs Avery (old woman) was born at HE or was that Mrs Wilcox and Mrs A was her servant possibly?

Wasn't she a childhood friend of Mrs W, from a neighbouring farm, later a servant at HE?

A harking back example of easier "connection" across class divides.

That may be it

I'm enjoying this - I've only seen part of the film (didn't have a clue what was going on) and haven't read the book, although I want to now. Helen is extremely irritating - I thought Margaret didn't seem shocked or surprised that she turned up with the Basts, but was extremely annoyed with her and adept at managing her.

Hate the way Jacky is so useless. Why can't she do some work as well

He treats her with contempt in the novel really - she is described as having bestial stupidity or something like that - I think the point is that Leonard is honourable enough to stick by her, although he doesn't love her, whereas Wilcox is dishonourable despite loving his wife. Class is not anything to do with nobility of spirit, but I think Jacky is "degraded" by being a townie whereas Mrs Avery is a product of olde England. Still it feels a bit over the top, his contempt for her.

Just watched episode one and quite liked it. As others have said, the background music is intrusive and I also ended playing PC bingo - seeing what shots they could shoehorn a non white actor into.