Game of Thrones Season 7, Episode 3 discussion thread *SPOILERS*

[OlennasWimple]

WARNING: HERE BE DRAGONS (probably) AND SPOILERS

THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF SEASON 7, EPISODE 3 "THE QUEEN'S JUSTICE"

Come and discuss the third episode in the penultimate series, airing July 31st at 2am UK time! Don't read the thread if you want to avoid finding out what happens in Season 7 but also Seasons 1-6

HBO description of the episode: Daenerys holds court. Cersei returns a gift. Jaime learns from his mistakes.

Please avoid discussing leaks and production details for Seasons 7 and 8 but speculate away on what we have learnt from the new episodes and what it might mean for the rest of the Season and the ultimate winner(s) of the Game of Thrones

I think they used the CGI on the dragons and wolf pack. I hope we haven't seen the last of Ghost though.

Sam and Randall must be due a reunion which ends in Sam getting the upper hand (thinking Tywin on the loo).

The wolves were definitely CGI but I think they might have borrowed the dragons from a zoo in Croatia.

There's always been a lack of direwolves. I get that there are CGI restrictions but surely a show as big as GOT can stretch to a few direwolf scenes?

The whole 'Starks can all warg' bit has been really cut from the story. It's so important to all of their characters, but has been reduced to an insignificant plot device that can be abandoned and forgotten about.

Trills are you sure you don't mean Hungary? I thought they were Hungarian Horntails?

They're native to Hungary but the trained ones come from a zoo in Croatia - that's where they film King's Landing so I expect we'll be seeing dragons over King's Landing pretty soon.

Ahh, that explains why they look so realistic

No wonder Jon looked so terrified.

Mustang27 - I completely agree about Grace Dent on Thronecast. Awful guest. Me and OH both said we didn't enjoy it as much as usual because of her constant wittering. She literally did not shut up, did she and the amount of times she interrupted people was just rude. I wanted to hear more from Hodor!

Sue Perkins is a legend though, she's so funny. I wonder how she gets away with ripping the absolute piss out of their sponsors every show? 😂

'Twat' isn't a particularly modern word. Granted, it's not as old as 'cunt' so perhaps that would've been more fitting.

I enjoyed the episode, and Olenna's death was marvellous. She is a character fans care about, I'd have taken her over all the Starks any day, but I see the point the pp made about the uneven spread of important deaths.

I can't be the only one who doesn't believe Cersei's suddenly started to outwit people, though? In the books, they apparently spell out how dim she is. They don't really do that here in the same way, but remember this is the woman who managed to turn the place into a near-theocracy within about 5 minutes of her dad, the actual brains of the family, being killed. And now she's meant to be able to outwit Tyrion, Varys and Olenna combined? Nah. There's a spy in the works somewhere. Either that or very implausible characterisation.

I'm finding the Cersei plot line unbelievable too. Last series nobody could rescue her from the High Sparrow, everybody had turned against her and believed in him, yet as soon as she blew the sept up she has a massive army behind her and a secure kingdom - in reality she'd have a revolt/rebellion going on.

Dany is annoying me, her pride will be her downfall. I can't see any spark between her and Jon. They always seem to build Dany up to seem invincible at the end of a series and then knock her right down again in the next series (it's getting boring!).

As for Cersei's prisoners and their punishment/death, I think she could've made a mistake in not killing them immediately.

I agree about the Lannisters. How come they have got this vast loyal army now?!

Cersei is showing elements of becoming the Mad Queen i.e sexual arousal after killing someone. People are probably afraid of her right now, until the Dragons show up...

Cersei plot-line is very implausible. I could rant for hours about how ridiculous it is her managing to stay in power as queen given the circumstances, but I think it's all been said before.

The showmakers have written themselves into a problem with Cersei. Book Cersei is pretty much finished - Varys off-ing Kevan Lannister pretty much saw to that.

However, with no fAegon in the show then who would be the human opposition to deadpan Dany?

Deadpan Dany has had to be made all megalomaniac and annoying so that her losing, in any way, to Mad Queen Cersei remains watchable in any sense of the word.

I think the Sands are going to go the same way as Septa Unnella - out of sight, out of mind. Good riddance - they were pretty unwatchable.

I presume Cersei has stayed alive until this point to set them up to kill her off fabulously. Am ok with that, it's just not plausible that she's suddenly stopped being thick. Even blowing up the Sept with the High Sparrow and Tyrells in it was more... dastardly, I think, than clever. My best guess though is she dies fairly soon, maybe end of this series, then the Good Guys, or whoever's left of the Starks/Dany crew takes on the White Walkers.

I did read that the actress playing Ellaria Sand says she won't be in it any more. Obviously whether one chooses to believe that is another point altogether! The Sand Snake characters were so unpopular with the fans and pointless though, I suspect the writers might've been responding to that in a way. I thought at the start of this series they'd definitely get killed off soon.

There's also sort of nobody else to be the monarch at this point, is there? Ie someone who's actually in Kings Landing. The other contenders are all elsewhere. So it makes a certain degree of sense as a power grab and temporary rule, but if they try and make it last much longer, nah.

Show Dorne has been a disaster from start to finish. The only good part of Dorne from season 5 onwards was casting Alexander Siddig as Doran Martell, and they made very little use of him. Ellaria Sand's character was completely destroyed by the show. The Sand snakes were awful. The book characters aren't much better (apart from Sarella).

Oberon was brilliant too. I wish they'd kept him in longer.

Oberyn was fantastic. I think they got a bit carried away with his popularity as a character after season 4 and tried to create 'mini me' versions of him with all the other Dornish characters apart from Doran. It just didn't work.

Ellaria might've been more tolerable if the Sand Snakes weren't in it.

Book-Ellaria is really anti-vengeance. She has some great lines in the book about it. I hate the way they completely twisted the character around. It just didn't wor for me. Her killing Doran Martell was the last straw for me. It's a shame as Indira Varam is a really greate actress.

Has Cersei really become that much of a mastermind though, or have the really good ideas come from Jamie, Pirate greyjoy and creepy doctor?
I am a bit annoyed by how dumb Tyrion has become: Going after Casterly rock with no strategic advantage, leaving High Garden poorly defended and not anticipating that their ships might be a target for uncle Greyjoy. Cersei's allies were able to completely predict what he was going to do. And while the whole "avoiding loss of life" thing i very noble, not attacking King's Landing is just giving Cersei time to prepare and build up her anti-dragon weapons.
Varys, too, has become quite out of the loop now (I suppose he has lost access to his spies). None of Dany's lot had any clue what their enemies were up to, despite the fact that it must have involved huge troop movements.

squishy I think you could tie yourself in knots wondering about 'intelligence', troop movements, distances and power/influence in show-steros at the moment. It defies logic. For example, Cersei told the iron bank she'd have their money in two weeks. How fast can an army get from King's Landing to HIghgarden? That's, what, 700 miles away? Who protects King's Landing in the meantime. Cersei has no money to pay for a load of gold cloaks.

Why aren't the smallfolk of King's Landing rioting? She's just blown up the sept (even Hot Pie knew it was Cersei) and the smallfolk are a superstitious and relgigious bunch. They've been calling her 'brother fucker' since book 2 - I hardly think they're going to love her now.

Why didn't Arya free Edmure from the Twins. She spent long enough there to have worked out he was a prisoner.

It makes no sense, but we're on a mad sprint for the finish line now so all logic must go out the window.

And how come Euron's ship moves so fast? Can it fly?

I thought the strategy to let Casterly Rock be captured and focus on Highgarden came from Jamie. He tells Olenna that he’s learnt from the mistakes he’s made, specifically against Rob Stark at Whispering Woods. I don’t think Cersei thought that one up.

To be fair to Tyrion, he’s a diplomat, not a battle commander and hasn’t had much experience in fighting wars. It was the wildfire that won the Battle of Blackwater, although I can’t remember who that came from. It wasn’t a clever strategy so much as a WMD.

I think if Jorah returns to Dany it would fill the gap she has in her advisors. He has battle and command experience so will have more of a strategic mind. None of the others have fought in wars, much less been in charge, but he has. Even Jon, who has fought, doesn’t really have experience of thinking strategically. Ramsey would have easily defeated him if it wasn’t for the Knights of the Vale turning up

Well, Jaime has never shown any signs of being a great thinker either, and Goth Pacey is nothing more than a killing machine. He's meant to be smart at what he does, taking ships and murdering people, but he's not mastermind material is he?

Qyburn is supposed to be very intelligent but again, at what he does. He knows how to dig up all the dodgy black magic but never any sign of him being capable of ability beyond that. The three of them are all good at what they do, within that narrow range, but you'd think there has to be someone or something to bring it all together.

I wonder if Varys might be up to something? Others have pointed out that Jon Snow is actually much more to his taste, in many ways. Maybe he wants Dany to have to go in with him?

Good point about not looking too deeply at the way intelligence works in GOT, Arya. I suppose they must struggle to get post at Dragonstone anyway They need to raise some birds there, then distribute them across Westeros, and then hope that they don't turn into a dragon snack when they return.

Well, Jaime has never shown any signs of being a great thinker either, and Goth Pacey is nothing more than a killing machine. He's meant to be smart at what he does, taking ships and murdering people, but he's not mastermind material is he?

True, Jaime isn't going on Mastermind but that doesn't mean he can't learn from past mistakes. I'm not saying it's the best explanation but at least they did try to give one and not completely handwave it away. Anyone can have a stroke of genius once in their lives