The Handmaid's Tale Vol 2

[PacificDogwod]

I go to work and this is what happens: the previous thread fills up when I have pertinent things to say!

Hope nobody minds, I've taken the opportunity to start a new one before the Offspring demand food and the likes...

One of the masterful strikes of strategic genius of the new regime is the division and envy between everybody and everybody: men vs women, women in different roles vs other women, high ranking vs low ranking.
No solidarity is allowed - even the partnered Handmaids were half companion and have guard. Never knowing who might be an Eye and who to trust must be soul destroying.

I think Serena is quite a tragic figure - in the book and in the TV series. She must feel so betrayed by the ideals she fought for and that she is now kind of forced to uphold because otherwise what would her life be?? Admitting that she supporting a world view that while giving her some kind of social status by dint of her husband's role, considers her without value as she cannot have children would render everything she stands for invalid, and herself by extension.

The author who wrote a book about women being able to electrocute men by touch thereby causing a power change over (sorry, I cannot remember either name ) was talking on Radio Scotland today. She said the idea for her book came from when she wondered why so many mechanisms in society seem to go back to the fact that 'more men can throw a woman across a room than the other way around'. It's a depressing thought that physical strength underpins so much.

[Batteriesallgone]

Storm

Consent under duress is not consent, that is a well established principle in our legal system that goes completely beyond the definition of rape. For example, if you sign a legal document with a gun to your head, even though you have actively moved your hand and signed the document, the document is invalid because the consent was not freely given. The whole set up with Offred counts as pretty extreme duress - the fact that she submits to the Ceremony rather than be killed doesn't make it not rape. Fairly extreme mental gymnastics must be required to think that that sex is consensual.

The guy the Handmaids killed who was accused of rape - my first thought was he was probably having a consensual affair with a Handmaiden, and therefore had 'raped' another, more powerful, man's possession. I would have thought if Offred and Nick were caught shagging his crime would be classed as rape.

Actually, my real first thought was that his crime was something more along the lines of a 'thought crime' - nothing to do with rape, but death by Handmaid is probably one of the worse sentences you can get. Handmaids get to release their pent up anger, trouble maker gets executed, all very convenient. Invent some story of a Handmaid being raped and having a miscarriage just in order to get the girls all fired up.

[TizzyDongue]

Oh yes of course it's that Jacob! I read on Rachel has another son and dies having him. But it's ok because it's a boy.

The one daughter grows up to be raped, he wants to marry her because he thinks she's hot. His dad has a chat with her dad aboit this, but her brothers aren't happy about this because the man who raped her has a foreskin.

[InigoTaran]

On ownership of women, this article on virginity in medieval times gives an interesting perspective account:

www.historyundressed.com/2015/02/medieval-virginity-testing-and.html

[InigoTaran]

From above article:

What we know about medieval virginity is that it had less to do with values and morals, and more to do with ownership and trust. The sexual status of a medieval woman was very much a public matter because her virginity, so they thought in the Middle Ages, was not hers to own. Rather, a woman’s intact hymen was “owned” by a man, either her father or her husband. Verifying virginity was the only way that a future husband could feel confident that his bride was pure because simply asking her about her past infidelities was unheard of. Women were eyed with suspicion in medieval times and it was common knowledge that all women were prone to lying and easily tempted by carnal desires. Coupling that attitude with the economic and spiritual value of virginity and it is no wonder that an experienced lady sought to reclaim her most valued asset, her virginity, and the reputation that came along with it.

[EBearhug]

I read on Rachel has another son and dies having him. But it's ok because it's a boy.

Benjamin.

[Ontheboardwalk]

Sorry but was it only me singing 'Jacob & Sons' during the recent posts?? I'll leave now...

[noblegiraffe]

Reuben was the eldest of the children of Israel, with Simeon and Levi the next in line 🎶

The handmaids' children aren't just minor biblical characters, Jacob was called Israel and the Twelve Tribes of Israel are descended from his sons, so also their sons.

I love that Margaret Attwood read this bit of the Bible, spotted the handmaids and decided that their tale was worth exploring.

[noblegiraffe]

His dad has a chat with her dad aboit this, but her brothers aren't happy about this because the man who raped her has a foreskin.

...and so they tell the rapist that he can have the daughter so long as he and all his men get circumcised. They agree, and then while they are all recovering from the circumcision, Jacob's sons storm their village and slaughter all the men. Because the rape of their sister was unacceptable, even though rape of servants is fine.

[bbcessex]

I've just bought and read the book, having come across this thread recently. I watched the film many years ago, and I'm about to start watching the TV series.

It terrifies me how some countries / cultures probably live in a similar way already.. ISIS / Daesh mentioned up thread, as an example.

Funnily enough, the book, although written in the 80's, has just crystalised some of the anxieties I've had already about things such as identity cards and cashless societies... I've never been inclined to hand over 'control' and this book no longer seems like too much fiction to me.

[Oldowl]

Afghan women live in a similar way and very much seen as property. A great summer read is
<a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/Pearl-That-Broke-Its-Shell/dp/0062244752?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">//www.amazon.co.uk/Pearl-That-Broke-Its-Shell/dp/0062244752?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

It certainly makes you appreciate the life and freedom we have in the West.

[Bodypumpaddict]

.

[BeyondOfbob]

Just moseying through sky cinema and spotted Elizabeth moss in "queen of earth", so downloading it to watch this evening. I'll let you know if I recommend it

[PacificDogwod]

Of course what happens during The Ceremony is rape - by our standards.
By Gilead's, well, it's The Ceremony
Because it's sanctioned by state and society and highly ritualised, it's ok

[noblegiraffe]

And yet the Wives regard the Handmaids as sluts and whores. I'm not sure if that's because they are Handmaids, or because of the type of women who became Handmaids.

[StorminaBcup]

BeyondOfBob - she's in a new drama on BBC2 too soon. Top of The Sea - china girl. (I think that's right).

[FairfaxAikman]

In the book (sorry) June doesn't class it as rape because (in her words) technically nothing is going on that she hasn't signed up for - there's not a lot of choice, but there was some.

[Abra1d]

Yup, women are the enemies of women.

[PacificDogwod]

And yet the Wives regard the Handmaids as sluts and whores.

The wives feel deeply threatened by the handmaidens' fertility so have to find a way to despise them.
Divide and conquer, all the way

[CoolCarrie]

I am reading an excellent book at the moment, The War On Women by the late journalist Sue Lloyd Roberts, I highly recommend it. Sue unfortunately died before it was published but her daughter, Sarah was able to help with editing it.

[CoolCarrie]

There are soo many stories in THT that reflects the Lloyd Roberts book, that it is a difficult read but excellent. She was a brilliant journalist and sadly missed.

[LouiseBrooks]

TizzyDongue the sister is Dinah who is the heroine of "The Red Tent". Highly recommended for anyone who hasn't read it.

[TizzyDongue]

Ooh I have The Red Tent somewhere. Must dig it out

[BeyondOfbob]

I've had the red tent in my ebay basket for ages, must get around to actually buying it!!

[Marmitelover55]

I read the book a while ago but thought the man killed by the handmsids was actually a member of the resistance and that was his only "crime"? The handmaids were told "rape" so that they were angry enough to kick him to death.

[Orlantina]

Try another way?