Mother of God - it's the final LOD! Watch as Roz Buckells up for the ride-has she managed to Lakewell enough to uncover Big Fella H with no reciprocity?

[FeralBeryl]

Non gender neutral DARLIN'S welcome! and anyone else
Ready for when the previous thread fills up. Obviously I'm incapable of linking it but someone clever will be along...

The whole difference between murder and manslaughter is whether you intend to do it - an intention to kill is murder. Killing someone in a fight etc, is manslaughter.

Of course, she can claim it because he bought the power tools, not her. So no evidence of her intent, in fact quite the opposite.

Self-defence is a defence against a manslaughter charge (but not a murder charge). Diminished responsibility is also a potential defence, but obviously she didn't get that one through. SD can only be used where it is 'reasonable' force - I think she probably undermined that by all the cleaning up etc. As he died of exsanguination it seems possible she could have saved him since that takes so long. That probably undermined her defence. Whatever she put forward as her defence, it obviously didn't work.

And she had no defence for the perverting the course of justice one.

TheHiphop agree that there was much misdirection going on. A sort of 'not seeing the wood for the trees'. Though not sure if that's because I've been on these threads and got myself completely frazzled with looking at details that didn't come up in the end. Lots of unfinished business.

Ilikebeans I too felt a little bit disappointed watching ep 6 first time around. Just rewatched with DH and felt more satisfying as I always pick up more on rewatches.

Of course it was self defence with Roz. How would you feel if you woke up after being thrown and knocked out to find your work colleague was standing over you in full suit with an electric saw! Of course you would defend yourself.

Elendon that made me laugh!

It would brighten up my work day tomorrow!

I'd probably cry and the poo myself and end up hacked to death

I like Ceto's theory that it was because Ros didn't call for help for Ifield

I love those photos Coco Thanks for sharing. Like the big fella himself, I don't do much social media.

I have a black cat whose more Panther than cat. I've taken to calling him 'big fella' and he actually preens when I say it!

Who's not whose.

We all seem to buy Roz's plea. Surely she could have seized both opportunity and saw and killed Ifield deliberately : revenge and self defence are not the same thing. As the net closed in she said 'oh, I didn't mean to' and everyone accepted it. So she only gets 10 years rather than life. She has negotiated a better way out of it for herself.

Prisons seem to be full of police these days! No wonder we have overcrowding issues.

WE know it was self-defence, but looked at from the outside, there is scant supporting evidence!

Marilyn still can't stop at Operation Backdoor. Hope your DH's ankle is feeling better. If he grazed it on some brickwork, do be sure to keep eye on it especially if he keeps one sock on at night

Yes, exactly Out because she dumped the evidence and then tried to pin it on her husband. But we haven't walked a mile in her shoes so we don't know how we would have reacted.

Ten years seems right to me.

I agree with that scenario Beans. I said on the other thread her breaking down and 'confessing' couldn't be taken at face value - why would it, when nothing she'd ever done in the previous episodes could be? She found herself a way out and took it, minimising the fallout for herself.
And how can it be manslaughter if you watch someone bleed to death without getting help, even if they'd attacked you first?

Just seen on Twitter that S5 won't be here til 2019 😳

Of course the best way to have 'words' with a colleague is to call them into your office. Always. Never, ever, go to their flat.

But that evidence was not evidence of self-defence, it was evidence she killed him. There's no evidence to support her claim it was self-defence. The only thing she could point to was the fact Ifield bought the power tools - but as no-one knows when she got there or left, it's only her word (other than Nick's but he only knows when she left the house, and he went back before she did) - and some vague confirmation from the mini cab firm.

I have an inkling that like in series 2-3 where scary Lindsay Denton was in prison but appealed, more evidence against either Nick, H, Lakewell,etc will come to light (Maneet😀) and she will stand trial again and we will see what really happens. Grizzly scenes in abundance. 😜

Yeah elendon good point.

Why didn't she just speak to him at work. And why leave her phone at home so she couldn't be traced?

She said she got the mini cab to cover her tracks in case Ifield made a complaint about her. How would getting the mini cab have helped though? I suppose she thought she could deny going there if he complained about it (she wouldn't have known he had his 'stupid' entryphone camera on his laptop)?

Ah yes Ceto but not generally whilst using a power saw!

No reason why not, if it was in the course of trying to get it off your assailant. The same would apply with, for instance, a gun. People only get convicted for manslaughter if the defence of self-defence is not accepted - i.e. it becomes irrelevant. ILike, you did say that self defence is not an allowable plea and it only reduces murder to manslaughter - which I take it you in fact accept is not the case.

I don't listen to The Archers at all, but that infers to me she was tried for murder, not just not charged?

She was charged with murder and tried for it. At no point did the judge suggest to the jury that, if they found she was acting in defence of her son, they must find her guilty of manslaughter. Which was entirely accurate in legal terms.

The jury might not have believed her though about self-defence. After all, we (some of us) don't! And we actually saw Tim leaning over her with the saw - which the jury did not, so would have been even less likely to believe her.

So her replacement lawyer may have advised her to plead guilty to manslaughter - she did plead guilty did she, or was that just L-A-K etc?

I think the fact that Ifield bought the power tools and the other items was a powerful defence towards self defence and it was not hearsay but caught on camera. She covered her tracks though and went further in trying to implicate her husband. I'm sure the latter put an extra five years on her sentence.

Self-defence is a defence against a manslaughter charge (but not a murder charge)

Again, not so. If you succeed in a defence of self defence, you can and should be acquitted of murder, because you haven't committed murder, i.e unlawful killing; what you have done is to use reasonable force to defend yourself.

Although Roz can't prove she acted in self-defence, the prosecution can't prove she didn't, and the burden of proof remains with them. They have to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Plus she has in her favour the undoubted fact that Ifield went out and bought the power tools. So presumably in this case the prosecution decided to go for the easier option of a manslaughter charge using, amongst other matters, the failure to call for medical help - and probably the fact that manhandling a man who was bleeding out would have hastened his death.

Yes, 2019 confirmed in the Independent.

Yes, re him buying the tools. Though only Nick really knows the timing or her arriving at the flat.

In the Archer case the defence was that it was not attempted murder, and it wasn't, so she was acquitted. You can't have 'attempted manslaughter' as manslaughter is, essentially, an accidental death with no intent, or certainly no pre-meditated intent. Though there are different versions, like voluntary, corporate, driving offences etc.

Oops, yes, it was an attempted murder charge in The Archers. Not sure how I forgot the salient point that the victim was still alive!

But it doesn't change the fact that self defence is available as a defence to a charge of murder.