Damian Lewis fans line up for Wolf Hall tonight

[Travelledtheworld]

Wednesday 21st January BBC2 Channel 4

lush costumes.

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/11358197/Damian-Lewiss-inspiration-for-Wolf-Halls-Henry-VIII-Wills-and-Harry.html

When I heard Hilary Mantel talk about the book, she said one of the things you have to keep in mind was that heaven and hell were absolutely real, physical places to most people at that time, and you would be going to one of them - which affected the behaviour of almost everyone.

Good point re families, Katie. In contrast to the Countess of Salisbury who has no family left by then?.

The family consideration and the importance of dignity seems to explain it, I think.

As far as the stoicism and even humour in the face of death goes, I'm not sure it is necessarily about faith. It could be akin to the Blitz Spirit, and the tendency of people who feel death breathing down their neck simply having to laugh and be philosophical because, well, what's the alternative? Spend your last unknown number of hours in paroxysms of grief?

Thomas More did the humour too, of course - 'this beard hath committed no treason'.

YY, can totally believe it was Blitz Spirit. But then, I can't imagine that either.

And that is less personal.

countess - darn, that makes me like him again!

I'm guessing yelling 'Henry, you suppurating bellend, I never shagged my brother!' would lead the executioner to become slightly less competent...

I think the recording of ABs last words were pretty accurate given the spectators and who some of the spectators were. Can't imagine the French or Spanish reports would have whitewashed Henry had Anne gone off message.
Margaret Pole left behind her children. Reginald Pole was out the way but there were others left in England. Is there any record of her last speech? I know she maintained her innocence but did she beg pardon?

It was seen as really important at the time how one died, I think - lots of descriptions would circulate afterwards and affect one's reputation. Even more so if one was executed. So people would have done their utmost to be self-possessed... The last thing one could do for oneself, really.

There is a scholarly book by George Bernard which I know HM has read that suggests maybe there was some truth in the accusations against Anne. He argues that she was terrified by her failure to produce a son and thought that maybe there was something wrong with Henry that led to her pregnancy losses, so she had sex elsewhere in the hope of conceiving and bearing a healthy boy.

Knickerful (love that), yes, great point.

Aknick

Or her miming a floppy teeny dick while yelling 'at least I can stop faking it!'

I'm sure I read that TC declared himself a Catholic in his last words- does anyone know?

Excellent point about AB being desperate for a son. I guess the jury is forever out...

In fact, I'm sure I've read that the accusations of her sleeping with her brother had some credence if she was trying for a boy who wouldn't conspicuously look like someone else. And they were brought up separately...

But it still seems a stretch.

www.theanneboleynfiles.com/28-july-1540-thomas-cromwells-final-speech/

Thanks, Knickerful

Hang on, did he just say what I think he said - purge myself =shit myself?

Isn't that purge himself of sin?

That's what I would have assumed too, except look at the context:

'“I am come hether to dye, and not to purge my self, as maie happen, some thynke that I will, for if I should do so, I wer a very wretche and miser:'

'Purge yourself' is standard terminology for diarrhoea - Norfolk's oversharing letters are full of it.
If he means sin I can't make sense of the rest of the sentence.

Countess - could he have meant both, playing on the double meaning?

I didn't realise AB was pregnant when she and H married - or that they married in Calais. Though listing the things I didn't know about this period and its characters would fill up the thread, that's why WH is so interesting.

Also interesting to read posts from those who know the period from history (as it were), those who've read the HM books and those like me whose knowledge was sketchy and film or Horrible Histories based.

Back to AB, was it common knowledge that she'd married H in France and was pregnant before the church wedding in England? Who, apart from MB was a witness to the French marriage "ceremony"?

Didn't Calais still belong to England at this point?
IIRC it was lost during Mary I's reign. So technically speaking, if that's where they married - and I didn't know that, either - they didn't marry in France.

At least, I guess that's what Henry would have claimed.

I think they shagged for the first time on the Calais trip then got married in a small ceremony back home when Anne was confirmed as being upduffed.

LadyGlen - I meant more that they were married away from court and without the whole abbey (or wherever was usual for kings in those days) and in private. And without warning. They can't have even had a prior/chaplain/priesty person otherwise MB wouldn't have gone looking for a bible for AB to swear upon.

How credible was a "We swore before God and now we're married. Honest."?

He means he hasn't come to clear his name, I think - he's not challenging the guilty verdict, so the bit about admitting he's a sinner is a general admission, not a specific one. I agree it's a pun, though. And a bit Lutheran, since Luther liked that sort of thing.

lady - I don't think that works. It's still France, despite being English territory. Like Wales doesn't stop being Wales because the English crown holds it. People refer to it as France throughout the period.

Fiderer, probably very as pre-contracts were a thing that made other marriages null (hence the princes in the tower being deposed and the story around Anne and Percy)

I mean they made subsequent marriages to other people null.

Cross post.

fid, it'd be absolutely plausible, because that is the sum total of what you need to do to contract a marriage in that period.

You just need to swear that you have done so. You do not technically even need witnesses - that's just for convenience in case you're challenged. Nor do you need to be in church.

You get all sorts of fun legal cases where people quibble over precisely how formal their swearing was, claiming they didn't mean it seriously and didn't use a proper, formal declaration.

There is a brilliant arse-kicking woman in the century before this one, who privately contracted a marriage with the family bailiff. Her mum dragged her in front of the bishop of Norwich, and got him to give her a lecture about duty and obedience. And he says (in effect) 'look, be a good girl, we'll get you out of this, just tell me the wording you used and I'll tell you it wasn't solemn enough, and it'll be fine'. And she replies, 'thanks, now you've told me how solemn it needs to be, I'll go do that, so I'll have confirmation from a bishop it was done proper'.

She gets to stay married and they have three (?) kids.