Damian Lewis fans line up for Wolf Hall tonight

[Travelledtheworld]

Wednesday 21st January BBC2 Channel 4

lush costumes.

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/11358197/Damian-Lewiss-inspiration-for-Wolf-Halls-Henry-VIII-Wills-and-Harry.html

Just checked and yes it is

love this programme, rylance is a masterclass.

regarding Henrys erratic behaviour in later life I read it was due to a brain injury during jousting where he was unconscious for a while. it is said that his behaviour after this was different than before.

all of Henrys male children died, including illegitimate children. one he even thought of marrying Mary to. they never reached man hood. his brother also died a young man. some historians have said that there may have been a hereditary disease that only affected males in the Tudor family.

some historians have said that there may have been a hereditary disease that only affected males in the Tudor family

Interesting, but its very unlikely to have been the classic defective X chromosome type disease found in some male associated diseases - as in this situation there were several different women supplying the X chromosome

Going back to Henry Tudor/Henry VII. I've read that he didn't have a legitimate claim to the throne and that George's son, young Warwick, was the rightful king after Richard III.

The whole Beaufort lot were descendants of an illegitimate union who were then legitimised. Sure I remember "double adultery" being part of the mix.

Who was involved in all that?

At the point of Edward IV / Richard III, Henry VII I think it was a case of

come and have a go if you think you're hard enough

The throne was there for the taking, by anyone who could get enough backing (and backing was dependent on having just enough family link to the previous kings)

Warwick was removed from the line of succession by the act of attainder against his father for his treason against Edward IV. Otherwise George's son would have been king before Richard III.

It does slightly ruin the We are super special people and God says we are in charge line though.

And of course Richard took the throne in the first place by declaring the Princes illegitimate, and Henry VII repealed that declaration.

I'd forgotten about the attainder. Quite a useful tool to have.

Why was Margaret Beaufort such a "my son IS the king" zealot when there was illegitimacy and adultery in her family? A case of God has decreed "it's all right now"?

Thanks all. Like LaQ's "only had a tea spoon of royal blood". And Trills "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough"

Also if you read Henry IV parts I and II (and Richard II) you get a really strong sense of the pressure to establish a dynasty and secure your position. With lots of important nobles jostling for position, the person sitting on the throne is never really that assured.

Henry IV becomes king when Richard II was deposed, but has to carry the guilt of having deposed and ultimately caused the death of an anointed king. The whole of his reign is about trying to secure his position whilst also wanting to shed the guilt (he wants to go on a pilgrimage to try and rid himself of the guilt but never manages it).

I also remember learning at A Level that the northern nobles like the Percys were so powerful in their own region, and it was so remote from London control, there was a good chance 'Northern England' might have broken away as a separate country (and stayed catholic).

Can you imagine what might have been since then if it had happened? Where would be border be? What would be the northern capital? Who would be winning all the Olympic medals and football trophies, North or South? Rugby would obviously split on union/league lines so that would be quite straightforward ...

It is. It was an interesting dynamic - the king had to let the northern magnates maintain a fairly big force because he would have relied on them to fight off the Scots, but not too powerful.

The northern capital would have been York. There's talk in Henry's reign of a northern parliament - iirc it's one of the broken promises he made the North after the Pilgrimage of Grace - and when he came to York with Katherine Howard in the Progress of the North (LaQ is right insofar as he never went north in a normal progress - the one time he did it was a special progress with a special name and for the very specific reason of getting a formal submission from towns that had been involved in the rebellion) people were expecting him to hold a northern coronation for her in York Minster.

He also sent his illegitimate son Fitzroy to live at Sheriff Hutton near York for a few years with a nominal north-ruling role.

Ooh, I wonder if I have mine.
I remember it being all about Elton versus Lockyer but I have no memory at all of what either of them argued and why it mattered.

The Nevilles had a big northern base at Middleham Castle, didn't they? (Am not good on 15th c....)

The Percys base was somewhere round Carlisle way I think, wasn't it? -(and can never think of Percy without remembering Blackadder)

My A level notes are in the garage in a huge box - been longing to get them out but I'm 39 weeks pg so heaving boxes around is not on the agenda right now. But when I was studying it, it was all Elton vs Scarisbrick rather than Lockyer; don't think we read anything by Lockyer.

LaQ I did the same but I do remember a fair bit - Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, the Reconquista in 1492 being the same year as Columbus landed in America. It was all equally fascinating to the English history, to me. And I was inspired by those memories to go to Granada a few years back to see the Alhambra - amazing place, can't recommend it enough.

And you can see Ferdinand and Isabella's tombs in the cathedral there along with their other poor daughter Juana la Loca.

I remember the European stuff much better (different teacher) - we wrote an essay about the causes of the Decline of Spain.

Middleham Castle is fabulous. I have a lovely photo of my kids hugging the statue of Richard III because after listening to the Horrible Histories song they think he was unfairly maligned