The Fall, Series 2

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Series 2 of The Fall begins on Thursday 13 November, 9pm on BBC2.

Here's the trailer. youtube

The kiss has stopped me talking this far fetched drama seriously. Even despite the rest of the plot being far fetched, it was a step too far. Perhaps they are trying to show the sexual predator side of her charactor to the people who have not watched series one.

Hm, not sure I agree with all this.

Full on girl on girl could have been titilating but are we just being a bit sexist 'cause they're both women? Stella's had one shag the whole time she's been there. A shag and a kiss. I don't think much would be said about either if she were a man. Sex and love are part of life and we're seeing snippets of both from lots of characters...

I think it's good they've used an attractive looking man for the lead role. It's unusual to have a serial killer that isn't weird looking, or an ugly loner. Again, we're applying our judgements here - judging a man for being too good looking.

'We're actually supposed to sympathise with a serial killer now.' Are we? Don't remember being told that. If you feel sorry for him because of his alleged tough past then, again, that's your judgement. You never know, he could have been in children's homes or centres having committed an awful crime. He might not have been in them at all...

There are an awful lot of blanks in this series. We are filling them in with assumptions, prejudice and judgements.

And if you think it's mysoginistic - you think the show itself is mysoginistic? Rather than it being a show about misogyny?

I still think it's an excellent show. It's entertainment after all.

It was the casting that got my hackles up! That bloody awful actress from The Good Wife playing, -what a stretch- a sassy provocative bisexual professional woman who "owns" her sexuality defiantly through her really tight short skirts. Yeah right. Not for men to ogle at then? No really...

I didn't think she was particularly sassy or provocative and I didn't notice any short skirts...

I can't speak for the men you know but it'd take more than a short skirt to make my DH and male friends watch a telly programme.

I think Stella is shown as massively caring about the victims. I think that is good.

Although her stooooopid revelation of all she knew about Jamiepsycho from Rose and the circulation of that photofit appears unintelligent for a character we believe to be so clever.

(And if men were such simpletons that all they were interested in on telly is skimpy clothes and sex why do all the men - and women! - I know like the Newsroom, the Wire, the west wing, the good wife, breaking bad, modern family, greys anatomy, house of cards etc etc rather than Sex and the City?)

On a slightly more frivolous note, I think Stella-of-the-beauteous-shirts may be wearing a Boden shirt in that Daily Fail link picture

I think it's the lingering shots of a tied-up almost under-age girl I find most sick tbh. But there's other stuff going on with Stella too that I'm not clever enough to articulate.

I think what irritated me about it radio was that for a second there, the BBC was in danger of showing two intelligent, serious women, professionals, working well as colleagues. Now they're like a pair of horny teenagers. For me it adds nothing to either character, but makes it difficult for the viewer to take them seriously.

I was cross at the first hint of this, when they had the conversation in the car about Olson's injuries. It was unprofessional. And if the writers are trying to make the point that Gibson/women can have casual sex and that's ok! and it's really not be a big deal! they're going a funny way about it, because they're obsessed.

That wasnt my point at all. It was a cheap shot aimed at lowest common denominator in my view. And v unlike tone of first series.

Agree Noelle, I can't believe that Rose's safety wouldn't have occurred to her. The care of witnesses is a central part of policing.

rootypig - so two women that have a kiss are now 'horny teenagers'? What bollocks.

And the makers are 'obsessed'? Because Stella had one shag and was open to another?

You're in danger of slut shaming.

Maybe the woman kissing a woman thing wasn't too bad.
Maybe we are too quick to assume the writer is reductionist and sexist. I didn't feel it was a cheap shot because we have met these women and they are real characters. They might well have kissed, why not?

Although after Stella was papped in the paper it seems unwise to snog in public even if that arse needed slapping down.

Oh and you can't take a women seriously now because she is sexual as well as intelligent, independent etc?

I think what this show is doing is bringing out people's prejudices wonderfully.

Thought you might find this interesting.

The Fall's writer Allan Cubitt on women and violence in TV drama www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2013/jun/07/the-fall-allan-cubitt-women-violence

'Clearly Gibson's decision to proposition the detective sergeant in the street has huge ramifications and is troubling to her male colleagues – but she refuses to apologise. Under patriarchy, women's sexuality is often only permitted a limited expression. Gibson insists she has a right to an autonomous sexuality. Sometimes a female TV detective is just a man played by a woman. Claudette in the LA cop series The Shield was quite literally that – a part originally written for a man wasn't changed at all when they decided to cast a woman. For me, Gibson's femininity was central.'

I think I get your point Rooty - it's actually quite rare to see two women with a professional relationship on TV talking about something other than dating and shoes and blah blah blah. Absolutely nothing wrong with the kiss (and I did sort of see it coming) but it felt a shame that we'd lost that professional relationship that had felt so refreshing.

You're in danger of slut shaming.

What a ridiculous leap. I'm not talking about all women's sexuality. I'm talking about this character.

I had no objections to the Olson shag - I thought it was quite erotic actually. I am totally bored by the writers making Stella defend it endlessly.

I do think the relationship with Smith has become unprofessional - not because it's sexual, but because their conversations have been unprofessional! and that disappoints me. And the emphasis that they constantly place on Stella's sexual voracity (Olson, Jim Burns, Dr Smith) relative to the development of the rest of her character (non existent) while at the same time her she is making mistakes and her professionalism is under question, both in the script and to the viewer, if you see what I mean - yeah, I do have a problem with that. Especially when she conforms so thoroughly to accepted ideas of beauty and sexiness for a woman - white, blonde, slim, manicured, draped in leather and silk.

Thank you for the article link, but I had already posted it upthread.

Yes exactly Vashta

I think a lot of it goes 'beyond gender' though, or the fact that gender is not the issue, more the similarities of the two main characters, both damaged (by lack of father figure? What deep secret was revealed in Stella's journal?), both keep journals, both keep a very strong eye on dutiful routine and practice and clearly 'get off' somehow on the power they both have (over the opposite sex?), we know only snippets of their past, they are both flawed,there is almost an intuitive mutual respect in this cat and mouse game..' It is de facto a power struggle and the fall' could be equally applied to both.

I agree with radio and guineapig; this show is very complex about gender and sexuality and does bring out people's assumptions, biases and prejudices.

I think the kiss between the two women was totally fine. After all, think of all the telly programmes where two professional men are talking and end up kissing.

Oh wait.

I agree with rootypig and Vashta

I think this show is trying to be all clever, complex and sleek but behind all the smoke and mirrors is good old-fashioned misogyny. It's not a show ABOUT misogyny. It's fundamentally a misogynistic show.

Yes I now agree, Mama

I didn't need to see the kiss because I already knew that Stella was beautiful, engaging and sexy. It's not a gender thing. She is attractive full stop.

Just caught up and therefore in hidden the thread. When did Spector leave??

Ah, sorry, missed a page. Was confused as I thought Spector was hiding in the bathroom.