The West Wing: Trivia, Questions (Here Be Spoilers)

[Fiderer]

Also admiration and swooning. If you haven't watched all 7 seasons, read no further!

Two Cathedrals - have watched it several times and only just realised last night that Mrs Landingham was driving back to the WH as Bartlet wanted to tell her about the MS.

I love the scenes with young Mrs L and Jed.

Why "two" cathedrals though?

SittingBull, the only way to understand what they're saying is to put the sub-titles on. It still makes no sense, mind you. It's quoted here - "A Virginia state trooper responded to a domestic disturbance call outside of Calverton. They both got drunk. He had let her out at the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, so she dialed 911 on her cell. The trooper couldn't find her. She wandered off somewhere to try to get out of the rain. Guy checked an old barn across the road from where she said she'd be."

Oh well then, that's nice and clear

Oh, I liked Han Ample (I always enjoy Bob Russell episodes and thought the North Korea quandry was good) and I don't actually mind The Long Goodbye - but I don't like the live debate or the Israel/Leo's Heart Attack episodes. I do skip them.

Was watching one of my favourites last night and thought of this thread and the question from the 14th of whether any WW episodes could actually be described as romantic. I really like the Season 1 episode He shall, from time to time, which has Leo learning about the MS, and forgiving the President, but also Mallary kissing Sam and CJ kissing Danny. It's nearly romantic. Well as close as WW gets, maybe.

Building on from Sitting Bull's question, how about a list of things that were never satisfactorily explained, or just plain irk (and, yes, I know this show ended years ago and I should get over it, BUT):

1. The kidnapping - poorly resolved/terrible explanation
2. The Toby/military shuttle leak - I know, it's left unclear and there are several explanations, but it just doesn't sit right in terms of what we already knew about Toby's character. And it annoys me.
3. CJ's appointment as Chief of Staff. She was in no way qualified for this. If they wanted a woman, Nancy McNally was a more realistic choice.
4. Sam being essentially single for four years.

Any one else?

I really liked Han, too. I really felt the pianists pain when he wasn't allowed to defect.

We've just watched the Toby/ shuttle episodes again and I've been watching out for more clues and i don't think it hangs together either. I wonder if his brother's death maybe changed his point of view as he does say his brother would sooner have died than given away secrets

The how they found Zoey is really weak. OK, woman called the police, he couldn't find her, found an old barn... then what? Peeped through the window and saw Zoey (who was locked in a closet)? Recognised her and called up the might of US law enforcement who arrived in total silence? The house looked like a house, not a barn.

Think we'll have to gloss over that bit!

Toby - I think he did leak it. I think he felt that if it had been his brother, he'd have done it. As it was, his brother had died and he wasn't able to save him, it hit him very hard and he was angry that his brother killed himself and also felt bad about being angry. Leaking the information meant he could "save" the astronauts when he couldn't save his brother. Lots of emotions together with what Bartlet refers to as Toby's feeling of moral superiority, i.e. that he felt it was the right thing to do.

Read somewhere that Richard Schiff thought Toby wouldn't have leaked it and that the network/production company wanted to save money by not having so many main characters around.

Then again, am not always sure what I've read and what I just make up

@Jumpyjack

1. Sam being essentially single for four years.

That one is easy. He was with MEEEEEEEEEE. {swoon}

On a slightly less fantasist note, was that not Sorkin's point ?- that these guy spend SO much time at work that there isn't any time at all for a relationship - even with someone else at work?!

Think about :-
all the dates Donna has to cancel
Leo and Mallory's mom
Cj on the running machine chatting the guy up saying "this is MY time, 445-545 am or whatever godawful time it is in the morning"
Josh only EVER "dipping his nib in the office ink" mandy and amy for e.g.
Toby and Andy

NB My fave guest star? CHRISTIAN SLATER!

I think I asked on the previous WW epic thread about the one where tuleremia is 'released' or possible 'not released as it was a drill'. That episode confused the heck out of me and the possible plot line options never went anywhere...

Adding to Olivia's list - Kate and Will getting it together. I think the only person who managed to hold down a relationship with anyone outside the WW was Margaret - even then they made a joke about her pregnancy with comments along the lines of 'did you know?' 'no, I didn't even realise she was [seeing anyone]' etc. And of course that was all because NiCole whatserface was pregnant in real life.

Had forgotten that tularemia one. That definitely goes on the list as being unclear and irksome.

Yes, Sorkin did seem to be making a point about not being able to hold down relationships because they all had such big jobs. But the President does! And Sam doesn't even seem to date. And Toby doesn't have sex for 7 years?

Margaret is alluded to several times as being a lesbian. I assumed they were implying in that scene it was a sperm donor baby. Or have I made that up?

where is this other thread of which you speak?

OliviaMN, there are several here in Telly Addicts. You may have to scroll back through a few pages, but they are there!

I think as well as the kidnapping itself, the lack of an aftermath. Someone gave the appalling Jean-Paul the spiked ecstasy to give Zoey so there was clearly a conspiracy, but no investigation appears to have been carried out. No-one else appears to have been involved except the people killed in the raid, nor indeed any obvious consequences to the US admitting they bumped off Sharif, is it ever even mentioned again? Nor of course is Jean-Paul himself - no great loss but is he ever charged with anything? Does he not get crucified in the media as the idiot boyfriend who got the First Daughter kidnapped?

The Kate character always annoyed me (esp her fringe) as she seemed mainly have been introduced to bring down the average age of the cast, and then John Wells did what he always does and starts introducing random romances between the characters as well - boring and pointless.

I simply do not believe Toby would have leaked the shuttle story (in itself a rather preposterous plot device not in keeping with the nature of the show).

They are there.
With all the usual suspects

Honestly, what's the point of being in MNHQ if you can't instantly locate WW threads?

x-post with tripbot. I think the "Toby leaked it" was devised as the brother grief/moral superiority idea answers the "who and why?" but find it a bit clumsy as Toby was fiercely loyal to the Bartlet team, witness his criticism of Josh for leaving TWW and going to Santos.

So perhaps it was merely a device, as Richard Schiff reportedly said.

With regards to the spiked ecstasy, they did say that they'd gone to Jean-Paul's dealer's apartment, but that he was already dead. Presumably that meant the trail went cold at that point.

I've never made my mind up abuot the space shuttle thing, part of me thinks he did do it - remember early on in WW history Toby's brother is on the space station when there is a problem, so perhaps he was thinking back to how he felt when it was his brother up there - but then part of me thinks it's not very Toby-like.

There's a thread in Chat about WW containing people who are watching it for the first time.

I'm so

It's not in any way Toby like - it really pissed me off. Although I was glad the president pardoned him.

Re Zoe, I just watched these episodes last night - they referred to everyone involved in the conspiracy probably being dead so I suppose they had nothing to go on . And the missing Baijis (sp?) never turned up either.

Elisabeth Moss' acting in these episodes was brilliant though, she looked so haunted.

No, they aren't bad episodes but watching Han makes me sad.

'A sadness so deep no tears will come. And yet still there's hope'.

Gawd, it almost always leaves me with a lump in my throat. Powerful stuff but certainly not jolly

I actually loved the Toby leak story. I think the difference between his actions and Josh's in leaving to work with Santos (in Toby's moral scheme anyway) is that Toby felt that he was acting to save people e.g. with a higher moral purpose, whereas Josh was simply 'deserting' the WW. I also believe that it caused him a lot of sleepless nights before he decided to do it. I agree with Fiderer that it was all mixed up with his feelings about his brother.

I also read Richard Schieff on that storyline and he said there was no way Toby would ever have done that because of his loyalty to Bartlett. Schieff wanted some time off (it hadn't been decided that the 7th season was the last season) and they told him to come up with an exit storyline. Then they totally ignored his idea and did the space shuttle one instead. He sounded very indignant!

I do agree the grief over his brother made it more believable but I couldn't believe it still - Schieff said the only way he could play it was to keep in his head that Toby was covering for someone else so I tend to think of that when I watch it.

I found the Toby - Josh physical fight the saddest thing ever. Josh felt he had to leave and fight to get the right person into the White House after Bartlett, and he still felt guilty over deserting. Toby feels abandoned and is almost sabotaging Josh's efforts. When Toby says that Josh never asked him to come and campaign, or he might have come, there's a look that passes over Josh's face when he realises the truth of that and can't stand it, and then IIRC he just goes for Toby. I can hardly watch that part.

I never thought about the unlikelihood of a Press Secretary being made COS until the threads here but its quite true - CJ was never included in foreign policy stuff.

I did like the episode where she tried to adjust though, and her refusal to knock on her own door into the oval office. Plus the part where they essentially gave her a hazing and everyone else pretended to resign. Better than bicycles and goats in your office, any day.

Yes, I really liked the episode Lift Off provided you could ignore the basic implausibility of CJ being the 'obvious' candidate as new CoS. One might, if one were - say - Deputy CoS wonder if one were not the more obvious candidate. I think Hoynes does say to Josh 'you couldn't do the kind of politicking you do from behind that desk' but even so.

I think there's a nice moment between Santos and Josh when he also says something nice like that - it certainly needed said by someone!

It must have been for storyline/actor reasons - if John Spencer had health trouble and they needed Josh out on the road campaigning and Richard Schieff wanted reduced hours, they could hardly promote Will to COS so it had to be CJ?

I did also like the reaction of the press pack when CJ told them - she attempted to gloss over it fast and they looked utterly stunned and then applauded her - it was really nice camerawork. Also Toby as press secretary was very good acting - I really cringed along with him.

Actually you're right, it's Santos, not Hoynes.

I suspect there was an element of it having to be someone who wouldn't plausibly be involved in the campaigns (would an incumbent press secretary leave to become Director of Comms or similar for a new candidate? I would think their face would be too linked with the current president). And I suspect another ratings grab, as Allison Janney is (rightly) an incredibly popular member of the cast.

But plausibly there are literally hundreds of people they would have wanted before CJ - Angela, for one. Sam for another. Toby could never have been CoS.