Anyone watching "Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die"

[MindyMacready]

Uncomfortable viewing.

to protect their loved ones, and not just from legal consequences - I had a friend who tried several times to kill himself, his loved ones found him and managed to save him each time, it was extremely traumatic for them. Eventually he checked himself into a hotel and successfully ended it all with paracetamol and whiskey. His family had to identify his bloated, decomposing remains.

My friend was not terminally ill, but illness and disability had made his life unbearable.

I don't see why AS would take away from the continued fight for rights and equality for disabled people.

Most disabled people do not want to die. Surely nobody thinks that it's ok to hang back on issues such as access to transport etc becuase they can choose suicide if they don't like it?

Any person, disabled or not, could very quickly lose their ability to communicate their wishes. Any one of us could be in that position.

The law should be simple on this - the key factor in being allowed AS is that you must have asked for it yourself.

what is in the poison anyway?

Morris - agree.

LordSucre - it is Nembutal, the same drug used to put animals to sleep and apparently to execute prisoners in some USA states.

oh it all sounds so horrible even thinking about poison. My reason for asking was wondering how available it would be to get hold of. In the instances of these peoples case.

The thing is, if for instance I had been in their shoes, i would have got hold of whatever it was, via online or somehow, - bet is is quite possible, and then done it at home. Nobody else would have been implicated, and for the family I can think it would be no worse whether they were in swtzerland or at home (that bit to whollyGhost)

If there was another option, i really don't think i would go abroad in order that i can DIY. Yes, if someone was going to inject me, where there would obviously be implications over here, but a self administered OD , with a written and witnessed will, I think it would be much better.

personally i'd be worried for people like my mil who would just do 'what the doctor tells her' as that's the thing to do. i think that despite putting safeguards in place, people like that would be exploited sometimes because as they woudl be short of hospice beds. i'm sorry but that's the way it is . and the poor and most vulnerable would be the most likely to be exploited.

i also hate the message given that being disabled is being second class.

what message about disable being second class?

On the night before Dad died, of terminal lung cancer, he said "I feel amazed and excited". He had no religious faith. He had stopped needing morphine a couple of days before and his face was peaceful - not in pain. We cared for him at home and were in touch with the excellent staff at the hospice (NHS) who worked in palliative care. A nurse told us "It's not uncommon for the dying to enter what we call a state of euphoria and to stop needing pain relief." I believe the emotional support, coupled with practical help from a friend who were a retired nurse, made a big difference to the atmosphere surrounding Dad. He was at home, with the people in loved, in his own pyjamas, his own bed, his own music. Most people say they would prefer to die at home, but most don't have that chance. I think there are massive taboos around death and discussing the reality that all of us will have to face with our loved ones, and one day for ourselves are still strong. We live in a society which pursues youth and seems terrified of aging and the old. I would prefer to be 'helped' or to help myself, although this often seems to mean having to go before you're really ready so your state of mind can be reasonably assessed. But I also think there is so much more that could be done to make the whole process of deterioration and dying a much better experience. In the past 3 years I have watched my Mum die of Alzheimers, my cousin of motor neurone, my sister in law of a brain tumor...and more. I'm not saying all deaths could be wonderful, serene experiences. But I do believe more could be than are at present. If nothing else I think the publicity that Terry Pratchett is bringing to the subject of dying is very positive. The more we share experiences and accept our mortality the more the fear can be assuaged if the conversations focus on excellent care of those who wish to let nature take its course as well as those who wish to have more control.

Disaabled people are being seen as second class because we are the only people considered to have a prima facie reason for AS simply because we are disabled. AS is the only active campaign disabled people are involved in that gets this level of sympathetic coverage. All the anti-cuts actions of disabiity campaigns like Black Triangle, Disabled people fight back, etc are discussed in terms of fraud and of course That Pesky Deficit. Not much coverage of all the transport issues; the Olympics/Paralympics will not be accessible by Tube in a wheelchair. Why not?

who though has said that disabled people have a prima facie reason for AS?

I may well be being a bit thick here, but this discussion was about people who have chosen the right to die, not who should and who shouldn't.

I don't think I have read anything anywhere on the internet about people selected for euthanisa

no Prettybird (from further down thread - sorry - only just got back to this) I don't think I am. Was just replying to a particular point from Reindeer about the fulfillment of palliative care staff not being necessarily suspect.

Great post Issynoko

It is an unspoken assumption. I posted earlier about yhe art activists who had the (healthy) woman in a wheechair with a sign 'Help me Fly to Die'. She collected loads of money, not one person questioned her; the wheelchair was explanation enough. But not to get a ramp/lift in a shop? Not to get DLA or concessionary rates for tickets? That's what we mean.

Thanks Stillchuckingit. If I could go like my Dad, that would be a good death. It is possible without assisted suicide and I think there should also be a big emphasis that 'option' too.

ok. Point taken Alice. But surely this healthy woman would need to satisfy more than one assesment/ doctors that she was of sound mind and convince the same that this was her decision.

I don't feel that these AS Doctors just take someone at first sight and think, oh yes, we have a wheelchair, this person should be assisted to die.

Absolutely behind you on the fight for DLA etc though.

I just feel that there is alot we did not see in the programme with regard the assessment and paperwork, as the doctor stated in the afterprogramme bit. He was asked several times if this is what he wanted. And they do send people away if they are not 100% certain that this is the persons wishes.
Who are we to prolong anothers agony by fighting against these things.

If such a thing became legal in this country, it would have to be with very strict legislation though.

If my Mum had had the chance of AS she would have taken it. She died a painful and slow death... :( I think the programme was good, as we are all now talking about death and the choices people have (Or don't have). There is such a taboo about death in this country, but the fact is we are all going to die - it's a part of life. I even tell my girls this when they ask, and I took them to my Mums funeral

Lordsucre - because people in this country don't have the option of an assisted death with proper medical supervision in decent surroundings with your family around you. If your family were in the same room when you killed yourself, they might find themselves on a murder charge.

Friend of my Mum's was investigated by the police for a year - merely for making a phone call to Dignitas on behalf of her relative. Relative went to Switzerland and died at the clinic. The British police hit her with the full force of a very serious murder investigation, she was thrown in the cells overnight, whole thing was protracted and hugely distressing. And that was just for making a phone call and helping with the travel arrangements, not even going to Switzerland. Can you imagine what might happen if you were actually in the UK in the same room while someone you loved killed themselves?

Btw, this is all in the last two years - after the Director of Public Prosecutions made his ruling in the Debbie Purdy case that relatives who travel to Switzerland should not be prosecuted for murder unless there are aggravating factors, like a massive inheritance and evidence of duress.

Very controversial, but I'm glad the subject is at last getting some publicity. I personally would not do it (couldn't face leaving people behind voluntarily)- but then again, that's my position now, I don't know what it's like myself. Alzheimer's in the family has brought the issue closer to home... but then you can't always say that those who suffer from dementia/Alzheimer's are of sound mind and capable of making that decision. My view is pretty much each to his own, but right now the thought of taking my own life terrifies me. Choosing to leave my kids? I couldn't do it.

edam - that's quite shocking! What put the police onto your mum in the first place - did someone else in the family report her? Can't see why they would have a) investigated in the first place or b) known about the phonecall unless someone reported it.

aliceliddell I think it's a bit rich to complain that a campaign by disabled people (ie, the AS one) is getting sympathetic coverage.

I reckon it's getting sympathetic coverage becuase it is an issue that affects us all, we all have parents, loved ones, we could all become desperately ill at any time.

I also agree that it's crap that disabled people still do not have decent access to shops etc but if I'm absolutely honest I am unlikely to get involved in that debate simply becuase it is one of a million equally worthy issues that don't concern me personally.

I think it's totally unfair to think that if a person supports AS, then they don't give a toss about disablity access issues. It's just that this debate is the one they're passionate about.

One does not detract from the other.

Personally, I would have assumed that the "art activist" in the wheelchair had a terminal illness and thus wanted to choose to die, not that she was "just" disabled (IYSWIM). I would not have questioned her either, I would think that nosey and rude, not because I thought "Oh, she's disabled, of course she should be helped to die".

Incidentally it said on the film that the staff at Dignitas are not doctors or nurses. It doesn't bear thinking about what would happen if something went wrong with the procedure.

MorrisZapp I think one does detract from the other because of (a) resources and (b) prevailing attitudes.

And when you say,

"I think it's totally unfair to think that if a person supports AS, then they don't give a toss about disablity access issues."

Haven't you almost said that in your post though? The fact that it doesn't affect you personally means you are not likely to be involved in the debate. And that's the point really - I don't think those living with a severe disability have the luxury of separating the two issues.

I do not believe there is any real likelihood of disabled people being summarily executed. I support the right of ll people to end their own lives, with assistance if needed. My objection is that NO other campaigns for disabled peoples rights get any publicity, sympathetic or not. AS is instead of, not as well as,other, more immediate and more expensive issues. Give us the treatment, the facilities, the access and the benefits; then we'll talk about AS. MorrisZapp - you make my point perfectly. Any and all of the issues I raised could affect anybody, not just AS.

right oif all people

oif? of