Anyone watching "Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die"

[MindyMacready]

Uncomfortable viewing.

alice Those things are wrong obviously, but not allowing AS has little to no bearing on them. After all, that's how things are now. Continuing to maintain things as they are will not change that. Not that I'm saying allowing AS will change things of course.

I know that many people with disabilities want to live, of course they do, that is after all the default position for the majority of people. But why not do something for those that do not?

Baby reindeer people who work with death are off putting?
I think people who do this are altruistic and very kind, not many people could do this job and to make a persons last days as peaceful as possible is very meaningful.

Re the burden issue, I think it is actually a private matter. I was desperately ill a while back and had to move in with my parents for a bit - they had to hold me during the night, try to talk me out of suicide etc, it was awful.

I knew that they were happy to do it, and wouldn't have had it any other wa. Luckily, I did got better quite quickly. If I had not got better and my problems had become chronic, it would have seriously impacted on the lives of my loved ones, and on their ability to have lives of their own.

Had that been any kind of ongoing issue then I would like to be able to say for myself how I feel about being a burden/ pain in the arse/ worry to people. Of course my family love me and would do anything for me. But I could not put upon them to that degree on any kind of long term or permanent basis, because of my own feelings about that.

There's nothing they or anybody else could say to me that would ever make me feel ok about taking that much from somebody else who has their own life and problems to deal with. And I am allowed to feel that way. The feelings are mine alone. They are not wrong.

Stillchuckingit : I think you misunderstood Babyreindeer's point.

"Just because those who did the paid caring think it was a good death doesn't necessarily mean that the person who died would have done."

I didn't think she was referring to your case specifically - she was talking in general terms. And as such, I agree with her. There have already been cases on this very thread where people have described loved ones dying even with good palliative care who would have preferred to have gone earlier

Money isn't an issue in our case either (we live in Scotland and the nursing care is paid for) but I still hope that mum goes sooner rather than later.

Crap editing, forgive odd syntax^

It is horrible to be a burden to others especially in our culture where everyone likes to be independent and island like, but I think it's a form of pride which causes us so much pain, to accept help from others takes a lot of humility.

prettybird fair enough if I have misunderstood -

I am simply offering up an example where someone WAS happy with their choice

(I still think the comment about whether the "paid" carers thought the death good or not slightly odd ...)

And just for information, a good 45% of the people working at my father's hospice were unpaid volunteers ....

Agree bubaluchy of course we want to be healthy and independent and strong, never needing help from anyone. But we are human and frail, and illness and dependence is part of life sometimes. And what sort of a world is it where even to be seen to need help is weak, and, where the motives of those who offer help are continually questioned?

Death and dying are generally not spoken about in modern society until it happens first hand. Lets face it, humans like to control just about everything. We plan for every event in our lives but how many of us have up to date Wills, let alone planned our own funeral....? And yet death is the only certain fact about living.

Some people, including drs and nurses, are uncomfortable around those who are dying because of their own unfinished business and fears. But the fact is that it is the person who has chosen to die whose wishes we should uphold.

I personally have never feared death and have been at many a bedside to hold someone's hand while they are dying. I hope that when I die someone will do the same for me.

?Those who learned to know death, rather than to fear and fight it, become our teachers about life.? Elisabeth Kubler -Ross

Stillchuckingit - can't quite understand why you find that comment offensive - it implies that some people might/would find it a good death and others would not. My own father would not have wished to die in a hospice, and certainly didn't want to die at home ( indeed he expressed a preference for hospital as he thought they would leave him alone and it would be free - his words - he knew the hospice was free but wa worried his friends might feel obliged to make donations at his funeral) Some people find being cared for and having attention focussed on them un acceptable.

My views are formed through working in care - I manage a service for older people. My staff and I see things at first hand and many people who work in care are very much in favour of assisted suicide for themselves. We sometimes sense that the "genuinely fulfilling" view some people take in relation to their work with the dying is more to do with how they feel than the service users they work with - the expression "Mac tilt" is very often used to summarise the professional empathy that seems to come with the job.

What Riven and Alice are saying sums up my feelings so much better than I could put it myself.

Its such a difficult issue, but I agree with the opinion that campaigning for the right to die diverts dangerously from the campaigns for dignity in life and equality and appropriate care and pain management.

Yes it was uncomfortable viewing, and I don't think there can be any effective safeguards to prevent abuse. I think the way you die is very important both to the person it is happening to and their family and friends. Somehow assisted dying seems too contrived and a bit cold in that the intention to die dosn't allow any of the people involved to fully come to terms with the fact. So even if it is painful, sad, uncomfortable even lonely (only you can do it) give me life to the end of the line.

LWC - pleased you 'get' it. . If we already had the other stuff, I'd have no problem with AS. My problem is that it is a substitute, not an equal alternative. Because it's cheaper and easier and society's customs and attitudes don't have to change. In fact allthe inequalities become more entrenched by giving us all the SAME rights, we don't become more EQUAL. Like giving unequal incomes the same percentage increase, or the exact same amount reduction. The effects are not equal.

"My problem is that it is a substitute, not an equal alternative."

That makes sense, it should be an equal alternative.

Step Dad has MS and had read a few books on what happens when you die, ways to die etc, he has stated that he would not want to live when he cannot swallow or move. BUT he did not watch the programme on purpose, it's too close to the bone, he said like watching your own death, whenever that may be, for my Step Dad in 5, 10 or 20 years - who knows.

He knows that it would be very hard for my Mum to witness and be part of, but my Mum has said she would support his right to manage his own death his own way.

He has said he is not scared of death or deciding if and when he wants to die, what scares him is how family will deal with it. So if there were some legal crystal clear cut system it would make it easier for him and those still here after he was gone.

I am not scared of death, I watched me Dad's last rasping breaths for days while the morphine pump fired a shot into him every few minutes, the nurse said he was in no pain, but it's not just about the pain of the patient, it's this societal need to cling medically to every last drop of life and damm the quality of that life.

For me I would have flicked a switch to end his life days before if not weeks before he died, knowing you have terminal cancer and then letting it literally eat you alive until you die, is not the way to manage it. No dignity, no choices.

When my Dad died I was releived it was the end. To watch someone who was so fit, healthy and full of life 8 months before, have all that sucked out of them and then die a long death is not right.

I did not watch the programme either, might do one day, the people who took part in the programme, I am gratefull for them showing what it can be like.

Babyreindeer of course each individual will have a personal preference but I'm concerned that the way things are going, the more expensive choice (letting nature take its course with expensive drugs and intensive support) will simply not be available in a few years to come.

And, realistically, of course those who work in palliative care are not going to do it without some reward - either monetary or in terms of their own self esteem (nothing wrong with that). And, on the other hand, of course there are always going to be those who think more about themselves than their patients.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't possible, in many cases, for patients and staff to work together to achieve the death an individual patient wants (given the reality of a serious illness) , and feel a sense of satisfaction and fufillment when that has been achieved.

There are some genuinely altruistic people who work in the medical profession - who work in a quiet, dedicated way, without self-aggrandisement. I've witnessed what they do first hand.

I am a firm believer in voluntary euthenasia as watching my mum die of cancer (she's not dead yet) has proven to me that it is more theical than keeping the suffering alive. Of course THEY must have the choice but if I was mum i'd want to die before things got too bad.

I think this keeping people alive at all costs especially against their wishes is morally wrong and a bit strange tbh.

ethical sorry

olblackat. I would be able to come to terms with mums death more if she chose when and how to die rather than watch cancer take her. It is utterly vile watching it eat away at her. But of course mum would have to choose. She's told us all she's fed up. Terry Pratchet is such a talent. It must be awful to loose all that.

Stillchuckingit : so, if I understand your latest post correctly, you would be in favour of assisted suicide?

"But that doesn't mean that it isn't possible, in many cases, for patients and staff to work together to achieve the death an individual patient wants (given the reality of a serious illness) , and feel a sense of satisfaction and fufillment when that has been achieved."

....given that some people want a death sooner than medicine or the disease would "permit"?

If a person was of sound body, they would be able to commit suicide by themselves and this would not be an issue. Just because they are physically unable to do it themselves, should they be denied that right?

What alice said.
TRo start there woild be a choice between decent palliative care with meds and nurses and maybe hospoce or assisted dying.

Then, which is cheaper.....
Thats why I am scared as a person with MS. i am scared for my daughter who cannot speak or move. What if she gets cancer at 40 when im gone. Doctors who know bugger all about CP, or how to communicate with someone with no speech may decide she is in pain and pop her off.
It will happen. Its happenend in Belgium, those unable to communicate their wishes have been 'helped to die'.

The majority of disabled people are afraid of this law and lack of safeguards.

We are so keen to have and exercise choice in the rest of our lives, it is not clear to me why that wouldn't also apply our deaths. There are conditions under which I'd rather not live, i.e. incapacitatet or unable to do anything for myself. Not everyone will feel like that, but I do, about my life and my body. This has nothing to do with fear of how I will be treated or looked after, just that I personally don't want to live like that and don't want my family to have to live through it either. And actually, I personally feel that it is not worth society prolonging my suffering in that situation. I would much rather that money was spent on other things. Again, this only applies to how I feel about myself in that situation, I am not making a general statement about how certain patients should be treated or about what 'a life' is worth.

My grandmother was helped to die by a doctor in a hospital (not in this country) by being given an overdose. She was in sound mind but had been very ill for a very long time and it would not get better. She couldn't breathe and couldn't stand the pain and angst anymore. She was so so ready to go and said goodbye to all her family and was then in effect given an overdose of morphine from which she never woke up. We are so grateful to this doctor.

I understand that some people feel that helping people to die is akin to murder and that some doctors feel that helping patients to die like my grandmother is against the oath they've taken as doctors but others feel that they are doing the best for their patients in helping them end their suffering.

I hope one day we'll be able to carry cards that express our preference for assisted deaths in the same way we carry organ donor cards.

soupDragon -I don't understand why both parties in this programme flew to switzerland to commit suicide when they had to do it themselves in any case. I have said this further up the thread and not sure if anyone could answer why they had to go, when they could have done exactly the same in their own homes.

I actuallly thought the whole reason for going there,w as because it was 'assisted' by someone injecting them or that sort of thing.

Is it because one cannot get this particular poison over here. Have been battling with this since the programme, so if someone knows the answer, please tell.

It seems such a shame for them to have to travel to do something they could do in their own homes, where I would have thought most people would choose to die.

I believe it's because they couldn't have got the means to kill themselves without someone getting it for them. In which case the person getting them the means to kill themselves would be seen to be breaking the law.

Thanks empusa - yes that is what i thought it must be. I would have thought he could get hold of stuff either over the internet os somehow as he wasn't bedridden - either of them really.

Then they could have lived a few more months/years until they were ready to do it. They both seemed a bit under pressure to make the journey sooner rather than later which is very sad.