Anyone watching "Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die"

[MindyMacready]

Uncomfortable viewing.

Very moving, thought-provoking programme.

One of the things that struck me was that neither of the two men seemed genuinely "quite ready" to die, but felt they couldn't put it off, because of the legal position in this country.

Oh ok. Yes. I see bilibo. That really bothered me. Thanks.

I agree roisin.

The debate is very interesting. Although I've never giving it much thought, I do believe in assisted suicide.

I dont agree with the ladies thoughts that a disabled person may be coerced into euthanasia rther than given care. Laws could be put in place to prevent that, I think.

Incredibly emotional...

There already are laws in place, obviously they don't take into account issues as serious as this. The Mental Capacity Act is used to assess if people are capable of making decisions themselves, and it takes into account that we also have the right to take "unwise" decisions.

If someone is assessed as not having capacity then any decisions made on their behalf have to be made by family, professionals and independent advocates. Not one person.

Exactly- the laws are already in place, and could be presumably extended and perfected in regards to this issue. It would not be up to one person, or a family, to assist someone in dying who wasnt capable to make that decision.

I wish we had dignified end of life care. Then maybe people wouldnt be afarid of pain or loss of dignity. You should see the hospice dd goes too. The dying children are helped to live until they die. Thats what it should be like for all. Care, support and dignity. Then maybe we wouldnt need to even consider suicide.

And given that Panorama prog recently on the abuse of disabled people, do we really trust any laws? Would disabled and elderly people actually be safe? As Liz Carr said, in todays economic climate with cries of scrounger at the non dying disabled, what chance would dying people have to make a proper uncoerced de ision?

I was going to say that if someone was incapable of making that decision themselves then it shouldn't be an option.... however thinking about it I can imagine situations where someone was incapable of making the choice, but they were in a huge amount of pain, and there was no way to make them better. We're kind enough to put animals to sleep in that situation but we can't do it for humans.

I do think it's very wrong that the people in the program could have had many more months, even years of a reasonable life, if they could have accessed that clinic in the UK. People should be able to plan ahead, have all the assessments and stipulate their wishes while they are still capable so that their wishes can be carried out once they deteriorate past a certain stage.

Quote here 'Killing someone isn't usually seen as compassionate, except when we're talking about sick people, because we're subject to the social belief that it is better to be dead than disabled. I wonder if the DPP's insistence that a victim must have "reached a voluntary, clear, settled and informed decision to commit suicide" will also apply to a physically healthy person who has expressed a desire to end their life? If not, this guidance remains as discriminatory as before.
"

So will healthy people be allowed to choose death?

Good arttcile here

thats thought provoking riveninside....nice to see you btw

i dont think there would be a time that i would consider it for myself unless terminally ill, a way of having some control over when i went i suppose.

I would hope not. If a "healthy person" is choosing to commit suicide then they are probably far from healthy and more likely to need mental health support.

I hope it would only be available to people with terminal illnesses, or debilitating diseases who were capable of making the decision for themselves.

EightiesChick - what you said re. 21% of people doing to Dignitas not being terminally or incurably ill - reminded me of the case a couple of years ago of the BBC conductor who chose to die at the same time as his terminally ill wife, as he was 85 and preferred not to continue without her. I honestly can understand and respect his decision:
www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23719250-bbc-conductor-sir-edward-downes-and-wife-commit-suicide.do
I think it's so vital that there's a choice available here, so sad for people to cut their remaining time even shorter than it needs to be because they need to travel and worry about loved ones being prosecuted.

www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23719250-bbc-conductor-sir-edward-downes-and-wife-commit-suicide.do

I just watched Terry Pratchett being interviewed on BBC news. he said that Peter Smedley was refused water as it would have diluted the poison and could have meant that his death would have been slower or that he would have lived, but with brain damage. He said that this would have been a betrayal of Peter's wishes.

BBC Article

It was very hard to watch, yet all involved were so calm and resolute but I still don't know what to think. I believe we have a choice and with physical illness in a way it's "easy" to see why they wanted to die, and "easy" for them to pick their time (putting aside the fact that due to our laws they had to go earlier than probably necessary).

But with mental illness how the heck do you know when that time is? Say I had dementia and categorically stated that when it gets to such and such a point I want to die - how would a carer know when that point arrived that I would still want the same thing - it is a complete minefield. My mother is slipping in and out of dementia, and if she asked for this I don't know what I would do - go with her against my every instinct, or agree and forever wonder if I was doing the right thing.

In the case of Mr Smedley, it did seem to be carefully monitored and as peaceful and loving environment as possible. I have recently had my horse pts, and the actual moment of death was very similar - and the emotional side of it was bad enough, but trying to imagine how his wife felt and the family of the younger man was mind blowing. May they all rest in peace.

Watching it right now, difficult to watch. My two closest friends have MS and Huntingtons, and my husband's family has a history of Parkinsons.

I don't know my friends views on assisted suicide, but I know my husband agrees with it (as do I). We've already agreed that in certain situations we would help each other to die rather than suffer.

My lovely dad died last Wednesday.

He had had a degenerative illness rather like motor neurone disease and in 18 months had gone from an active person to one who, last weekend, could only move one finger. He could talk well and was completely mentally alert. He knew that he was likely to eventually die from a related condition and had started to suffer from inceasingly worse chest infections as he had no muscle strength in his torso to allow him to cough.

He became ill last weekend and was admitted to hospital on Monday last week with pneumonia. Dad knew that if he recovered from this bout he would only get it again very soon. He had had one night (Saturday) when he felt he would choke as he was so chesty and was very frightened but when we suggested hospital to him he agreed straight away. I am convinced this is because he had made up his mind that he wanted to die.

By Tuesday morning when I saw him it was clear he was struggling. He asked me if he could be allowed to go to sleep and then made it very clear that he did not want to wake up as he had had enough.

As soon as he said that I knew it was the right thing for dad. I didn't feel anything other than a determination to act as his advocate and ask for him to be allowed to die. I had a meeting with the doctor and nurse as soon as I could and I told them what dad had said. They completed respected dad's wishes and took him off the antibiotics. He was later given morphine on a constant pump which calmed him down and allowed him to rest at last.

All of Tuesday afternoon he woke occasionally, asked me to move his mask so he could talk and each time he asked me 'how much longer?' Dh and I stayed with him throughout and he smiled at us or winked from time to time. By 3am Weds he was fully unconscious and very very peaceful.

At 5.15pm he died with us holding his hand.

The nurse told us how lovely it had been for dad to have had a say in his own death and the fact he was allowed to just slip away. It was absolutely what he wanted and I am only sorry that he had had to be so uncomfortable and scared for a while after being admitted.

We wish that he had never become ill with that cruel and horrible condition in the first place, but he did. He never complained throughout the illness despite being robbed of his mobility, his diginity and the life he loved. But by last Tuesday he had decided that enough was enough and he was lucky enough to be allowed to die in the way he wanted. I know not everyone has the ability to do this, but I would argue very strongly for assisted suicide in cases such as dad's and the chap in Terry Prachett's film. We're lucky that we didn't need to argue to dad to be allowed to die as he was already very poorly by then, but I have since found out (from his favourite carer) that he had told her he wished he had gone 6 months ago before he had had to lose every part of his mobility and had suffered from so many chest infections.

What a moving story, and what a brave man. Willpower is an amazing thing, a friend of mine's mum who had cancer waited until her gd was born, then said she'd had enough and literally turned her face to the wall and died 3 days after that.

"I would hope not. If a "healthy person" is choosing to commit suicide then they are probably far from healthy and more likely to need mental health support.

I hope it would only be available to people with terminal illnesses, or debilitating diseases who were capable of making the decision for themselves.
"

Why? Surely suicide should be a right to everyone?

Having watched this last night and the debate afterwards, I have to ask, surely if we allowed this in the country, stringent rules would be in place to protect the vunerable and quite alot of hoops would have to be gone through to allow this. The debate afterwards really made me wonder about the fear that those who are anti have.
It would be interesting to know if those who are anti apply the same rule to their pets?

Mixedfeelings on that Riven, on the one hand mental illness is just that, an illness. However it is one that can be managed, or alleviated, so that the sufferer can still have a decent quality of life.

Whereas degenerative illnesses, by their very nature, cannot after a certain point.