Anyone watching "Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die"

[MindyMacready]

Uncomfortable viewing.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003280/Organs-people-killed-euthanasia-harvested-transplant-surgery-Belgium.html
I couldn't find another source so it is what it is.

Lovely DM makes it sound that the Belgians are killing people on purpose to take their organs! I am sure the true facts of the matter are entirely differnt. It reminds me of the Monthy Python "Can we have your liver?" sketch...

Agree with every word of morebeta's post.

The gvt is running scared of this, allowing people's agony to continue because they haven't the courage to deal with the issue in a mature, balanced way, as they do in countries such as Switzerland.

Peter Smedley in last night's film was clearly wealthy, presumably he could have had all the care he wanted. But he wanted to die. How dare anybody tell him or anybody else that he hasn't got the right to make that decision?

As far as the 'healthy suicide' question goes, that is surely a moot point anyway, as a healthy person would be able to end their own lives without assistance. Fwiw, I do think that anybody who wants to (I mean really wants to) should be able to end their own lives with help from loving friends and family.

Hospice care is indeed wonderful for many, but not everybody wants to be cared for in a hospice at the end of their lives. We should all have the right to say no, I'll take charge of my own end of life.

Different version of the story It's quite scary really!

It is so difficult for people with terminal conditions to make decisions. My own father always said he would shoot himself if he got cancer and it was not treatable, I'm like him and cannot bear to be dependent on anyone else, just the thought of needing "personal care" would be enough to make me contemplate suicide.

When my father was diagnosed with lung cancer at 63 he didn't really get the time and space to make any sort of decision. To begin with they told him he had a good chance of a lengthy remission, and he pinned his hopes on that and deferred a decision on suicide. When it came back some months later he was persuaded to have further treatment. When the further radiotherapy was discontinued he went down hill so quickly he was enjoying a day out with us one week and was dead 2 weeks later.

I work in care and know what it is like to die - breathing problems, pain, skin breakdown, incontinence. In the same way that these days people seem to want to take the "yuck" out of childbirth younger generations won't want to end their lives in this way either. It would have been far better for my father if he could have made an advance decision for assisted suicide when he was diagnosed ( there was never any hope of a recovery) to be implemented near to home.

There has been qite a lot of talk about the economic aspects of care on here, but I for one, would not wnt either the state or my family spending money on keeping me if I was suffering from advanced dementia, and would like to be abe to direct now that I be PTS if that situation arose - I use that expression not to offend anyone, but because I feel my family have made better decisions in relation to the lives of our pets than the law allows us to do with our relations.

Portofino - this has been going on for years in the quiet, non-dramatic way that is typical in Belgium. And then the Daily Mail get hold of the story....

I thought it was quite an empowering programme focusing on the right to choose important things for ourselves. I'm glad they included the man in the hospice who had made the choice to "have another roll of the dice"
Agree with others that the Bishop annoyed me most. I thought he was too forceful with his own views, and I wish Jeremy hadn't let him speak first. I would have started with the doctor from the documentary - she seemed very balanced and thoughtful in her views.

In an ideal world, people who had terminal illness' (and who wanted it) would have palliative care in a hospice. In reality, the majority of people miss out on it due to space. The hospice I worked in had just six beds and would only accept in patients when they were judged to have two weeks or less life expectancy.
Day and home care were offered, but not to people with conditions other than MND, cancer or MS.
People with HIV were not given a look in. It was one of the reasons I left.

Kreecher - there are very view palliative care beds in Belgium. Only about 8 beds in Leuven and 30 or so in Vlaams Brabant. Hospice care is virtually non-existent in Belgium.

'few' not 'view'

OK, although Terry Pratchett was 'pro-choice', I did not really see this as a programme 'in favour' of AS. To me it just showed the process, warts and all, didn't make it seem like a wonderful thing, and clearly showed the effect on those left behind etc.

Re: earlier comments to do with disabled people being 'better off dead', in my opinion anyone who thinks like this is in a minority of fascist style extremists, and I have never heard this opinion expressed. I think there is a clear difference between a disability someone which can still allow someone to have an acceptable quality of life, and a terminal or degenerative illness which causes increasing discomfort, indignity or pain which is intolerable to that individual. TP said he would not find it bearable to live if he could no longer write novels....actually he might not care any more at that stage...but you see everyone has a different idea of what is an acceptable quality of life. There has not been any suggestion that the law should be changed so that someone else can decide when you die, so I think with careful safeguards it could be a good thing.

Riven's point about abuse in care homes got me thinking: that is something much harder to monitor than individual cases of assisted suicide which would be much more under scrutiny, with the involvement of doctors, lawyers and family members, whereas the abuse is behind closed doors, can be subtle and could go on for years.

I haven't watched the programme because my grandmother had an assisted suicide at Dignitas just over a month ago, and it's a bit too soon for me to watch a documentary about someone else going through the same process.

I was always comfortable with the principle of people being allowed to choose to die, but dealing with the reality was very hard at first, especially for my mum and her siblings who had to do a lot of the organising, which felt very wrong. But my grandmother was so much happier in her final weeks, knowing what lay ahead that by the time she died, it was utterly, obviously the right thing to do.

In the end, she had a really lovely death, with food and drink and music and jokes and family around her. The Dignitas staff were amazing - so sensitive to the family. I'm now really glad that she got to have such a nice death, on her own terms, and if someone else I knew wanted to do it, I would be sad, but also very aware of what a positive choice it can be.

i did not watch, i have been reading his books for 16 years and they always makes me laugh. i want to remember him just for the books, my thoughts go to his family.

This is a great example of why liberalism fails: by giving the same rights to people who don't start off equal, you amplify the inequality. Obviously, if your quality of life is crap, partly due to your illness/impairment, partly due to society systematically disadvantaging you by lack of access and money, you will find life a PIA and be more likely to want the right to die. But actually you really wanted the right to treatment, housing, facilities, etc. Those rights cost. So you won't get them.

Just watched the actual programme. Andrews case in oarticular was hard as I am 42 and have MS, at about his level i feel i have so much to live for despote the need for help and the pain. I feel very sad he felt he had to die.

Theres a real lack of support and dignity and the will to enabke people to live fully before they die. There are not enough hospice places, not enough palliative care nurses. We have the technology to keep dignity and treat pain for end of life care. We dont appear to have the will or the funding to do so.

And once assisted dying is legal, will what has been revealed in Belgium happen here? A potential30% assisted without having given consent? Will dementia patients or those with locked in syndrome be popped off to save money and prevent them being a burden?
Non sick, non disabled people are already rather free with 'id rather be dead than quadriplegic like your daughter' comments. I would not trust a society like ours with its current disdian and fear of disability to decide when i, or dd, should die.

Not sure if this has already been brought up in this thread, but I feel very sad that he had to travel all the way to switzerland much earlier than he needed because he had to be able to drink the poison himself.

Surely, if this is his choice to die, then who are we to decide for him. Why could he not get some poison and then take it himself at home when he felt the time was right.

I orginally thought that the idea of going to dignitas was that they assisted you, but apart from literally handing over the drink, he had to do the rest himself, so surely he could have done that at home, in his own house, surrounding by his family?

Well said, Riven

Totally agree riven. There was a recent case in the Netherlands where a psychiatrist was asked to assess a woman with advanced ms (i think) because she was refusing euthanasia!

I can't find a link, sorry.

Am I alone in finding a noticeable divide between disabled and non on this thread?
Are there any disabled people on here who see right to die as a priority?

I couldn't watch this - I didn't even switch the TV on last night i case I saw it by accident! I have been involved in several terminal illnesses in the last few years and feel real life is enough for me without watching the documentary, although I have read lots of the recent interviews with Terry Pratchett (whom I really admire). I watched my mum dying with dementia and cancer. The Alzheimer's was far worse in her particular case - the cancer was very successfully controlled and without the Alzheimer's she might have lived many more years. But she forgot how to eat, couldn't do anything at all and forgot us all. But until 6 months before she died she was still enjoying life - she deteriorated very fast. For us it was enormously stressful, for her she still loved spring blossom, ravioli, plum crumble, sunshine on her face, French cinema (same film over and over again but still...) In her case the decision to die would not have been possible from her and I imagine that is the case for many people. My cousin died of motor neurone disease and he would have chosen to die he said although not long before he did naturally, of pneumonia, but he was fully able mentally. My Dad died of cancer, in my arms and he had a very peaceful, sort of beautiful death, but he was surrounded by love and very calm and at peace with himself. If I had a degenerative, terminal illness I believe I would like the choice - I might not drink the drink or take the pill but I would like to have it in case. A summer day, the sound of birds singing...much as Terry P says he would choose. But still find the debate very difficult as far as policy is concerned - it's hard enough keeping the Calpol out of reach.

It certainly appears that in Belgium a big boundary has been crossed.

I would have said at the outset of this thread that I agreed with the right to die. After reading those articles, though, where despite very strong and clear guidelines and a legal framework, doctors still seem to feel they can help people on their way without permission - well that chills me to the bone quite frankly! The law (as posted earlier) is really, really clear - but it seems to be OK to just ignore it.

Also agree with Riven. My Dad happened to have great care - an NHS hospice to balance pain relief where they had a sitting room with rugs, lamps etc - not hospital -like at all. Also had a dog and cat to keep patients company if they wished. The doctors weren't great, but the nursing staff were compassionate and jolly in good measure - hugely admire people who work in palliative care. We had no support at home though and were lucky to have a friend who was a retired nurse and he stayed with us during the days my dad was actually dying so we weren't afraid and knew we were doing the right things re practical care. Emotional care we managed as a family. But not many people have that. My sister in law also died last summer, with great NHS support and nursing at home plus family around her taking care of her children and talking, holding her hand etc. Everyone had a take-away together around her bed - as she wanted by the way! - on her last night. Life really didn't end for her until her breath stopped. But what made the 'good' deaths good in my experience, was the quality of care, whether from relatives, nurses, friends, other support agencies. The honesty of the emotional support, the lack of fear of the illness - partly due to good understanding of how practically to help - not to say no-one was frightened at times but it was discussed. There are other ways to die 'well' and I do worry that high quality care of the dying or of people who are ill will be even less common than it is now if euthanasia becomes normal. No easy answers.

The law in Belgium isn't even very clear. If you read this article (in flemish):

www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.924039

it says that the nurse's role in euthanasia is very unclear in the law. While it is clear that nurses are not allowed to carry out the euthanasia, their precise role in euthanasia is unclear in the law. The law serves to protect the doctor but not the nurses.

This could potentially means nurses being pressured into carrying out duties that they shouldn't be doing.

This is such a tricky one.

People with disabilities cost the NHS billions of pounds a year. We've already heard from Mumsnetters who say that they have been judged because of their disabilities and at least one person has told them they may be better off dead.

We have to be careful that by allowing one section of society to choose their own death we are not neglecting the needs of another section of society who want to live their lives to the full.

Abortion is routinely offered if the baby is discovered to have a disability, almost as if that baby's life is less important if it is less than perfect. As a society we have a very bad attitude towards disability and I'm fearful that any change in the law to allow assisted deaths may worsen that.

Already we can see through the awful case of the care home in Bristol that the law does not go far enough to protect the vulnerable. Carers sometimes become abusers and even those who care for relatives at home get hardly any support or help. The law can be as strict as it likes, but it will not be unbreakable and how awful would it be if just one person, just one, was killed against their wishes and no-one could prove otherwise?

Dignitas, however strict the law may be surrounding assisted suicide, have had their fair share of controversy. I really can't see how it can be introduced into this country without the same controversies affecting us. There's just too much that can go wrong with very tragic consequences.

I wonder how docgors will view a request to die from two different people. Both have depression, bot ask to die. One is djsabled, one not.

I bet my knickers the non disabled one would be given counselling and medications and helped to live while the disabled one woild get 'completely understandable, look at you, shudder, would rather be dead' etc etc

Now, many disabled people get depressed, especially aftr job loss, or abuse, or just getting depressed. Yet they may be encouraged to die as the able well assume its the disability thats the problem, not the depression, in a way a non disabled person woildnt.
Thats why i am afraid.