How dysfunctional does this sound?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I am just after some perspective after some incidents over the summer with me and my two teens (19 and 17).

We have a loose system of taking it in turns to choose activities while away. DS2 can be very stubborn and driven by what he sees on TikTok. He refuses suggestions for his 'turn' and we end up doing something none of us really wants and is quite 'meh'. DS1 is very pissed off and calls ds2 a 'little prick.' Ds2 flatly denies being influenced by TikTok and digs his heels in, while giving as good as he gets to ds1. It all kind of works out in the end but the feeling is we would have had a better time if ds2 had listened to suggestions.

There are a couple of similar incidents while abroad. The worst one for me once home is they are both obsessed with being in the front seat of the car. For a while when much younger I banned them both for a year as it was such a nightmare. Now they take turns but it is still a source of contention. This week it was a multi-leg journey to visit extended family and I could sense it brewing between them over the fucking front seat. After a night in a hotel with a few journey stages ahead I set out who would be in the front seat and when before we got in the car. All seemed fine. They are 19 and 17!!!

Leg one ds1 was in the front. All fine and ds1 and I were chatting. Then ds2 suddenly pipes up that he's checked on Google Maps and he's been wronged and done out of time in the front and it's wrong. There ensues an argument between the two of them as we drive into a city of great sentimental import to me that I haven't visited in years since the death of a much-loved relative, as they are aware. I feel like just jumping out and abandoning the car. We park in a carpark and argue in the lift. I told ds2 all he cares about is getting his own way at all costs and he's selfish through and through. He is hurt and starts crying. We get back in the car and leave.

At this point ds1 is in the back with ds2 (as he chose when we left the carpark) and telling him I said something hurtful because I was upset and therefore ds2 should understand that I didn't mean what I said. I think this is true and say as much. DS1 points to a situation when ds2 hit out verbally at him in anger in a similar way and he, ds1, recognised that and didn't retaliate. He told ds2 he should do similar. DS2 is saying I and everyone hates him and crying. DS1 trying to reason with him. Eventually I apologised and ds2 accepted it and we moved on.

But I feel sad. It feels family holidays are coming to an end and we are just dysfunctional. If anyone has any feedback on these interactions it would be great. I'm an only child and want to feel they both get on, and they often do, but things like this make me doubt it.

Meh all sounds like fairly typical teenager nonsense rather than you being dysfunctional.

Mine bicker about the passenger seat too, they have to take turns or both sit in the back.

It does sound a bit like you all ganged up on DS2 about his activity choice though, what’s the point of taking turns to choose an activity if you’re going to give suggestions then be annoyed he didn’t choose one of your suggestions? If you mean he was refusing to choose anything at all I would have said “choose by x time or I choose instead” and not made a massive fuss.

I think you were quite hard on him too, does he usually cry after being told off? That’s quite extreme for a 17 year old boy, sounds like you were harsher than you realised maybe

DS1 needs to leave parenting to you too, he shouldn’t have been going on at DS2 in the car, you should have stepped in sooner there

I have an only child. However, my dd gets very frustrated at the fairness of things. So I can imagine this is difficult to manage this all the time as a parent.

The thing with the car. can you have a word with your dcs before you next go anywhere and say overall things even out? That you’re not going to start getting a stopwatch out to make things 100% equal every time. It’s for them to manage any discomfort they feel without speaking about it in front of you whilst in the car. It is distracting and dangerous. Stop the car if necessary when they forgot themselves.

As for calling your ds2 selfish through and through and telling him he wants his own way at all costs, I don’t think you should be speaking to them like that. Some teens are incredibly selfish. It’s not fair, however, to say it to them so brutally, if at all. Model. Discuss. And discuss out of earshot of your ds1.

It is not surprising your ds1 berates your ds2 by calling him a little prick if you’re saying stuff to them like this about themselves. If I spoke to my dd just once the way you spoke to your ds2, her reaction would be off the charts and would cause a lot of damage to our relationship. It sounds as if your ds2 is struggling a fair amount emotionally if he cried so easily or feels he is being picked on by the 2 of you. Your ds1 shouldn’t have been involved.

In essence, I think everyone talks and bickers a lot. You included. And from the description here, your ds2 is right to feel picked on by you and his brother. And why did he need direction on his turn to make a decision when it was his turn to decide on an activity? If you want things to be more harmonious, it starts from you, the adult a) refraining from now on from bickering or criticising, and b) not accepting bickering from them by stopping the car as I suggested.

We have a loose system of taking it in turns to choose activities while away. DS2 can be very stubborn and driven by what he sees on TikTok. He refuses suggestions for his 'turn' and we end up doing something none of us really wants and is quite 'meh'. If it is DS2's turn to choose, set parameters (budget, distance etc) and let DS2 choose. Protect DS2's right to choose AND everyone's right to decline the activity if unappealing. Not everyone has to do everything and choosing an activity for the whole (critical) family is a lot of pressure on a 17yo.

DS1 is very pissed off and calls ds2 a 'little prick.' Ds2 flatly denies being influenced by TikTok and digs his heels in, while giving as good as he gets to ds1. It all kind of works out in the end but the feeling is we would have had a better time if ds2 had listened to suggestions. DS1 should be reprimanded for speaking like that. Why is DS2 being criticised for getting an idea from TikTok? If DS2 is accessing unsuitable content on TikTok that's a separate matter. You are offering DS2 the opportunity to make a choice then undermining/criticising the choice. You might have more fun if you respond positively to his choices. The more adult response from you would be to set out without judgement if an activity doesn't meet parameters, and be respectful of choices made if it does meet parameters.

both obsessed with being in the front seat of the car this is a symptom of wider competition. They are old enough to be talked to about not needing to compete, but the competition dynamic runs through the whole post so needs looking at from the parenting angle too.

I told ds2 all he cares about is getting his own way at all costs and he's selfish through and through. Extremely unhelpful approach.

At this point ds1 is in the back with ds2 (as he chose when we left the carpark) and telling him I said something hurtful because I was upset and therefore ds2 should understand that I didn't mean what I said. I think this is true and say as much. DS1 should not be intervening full stop and the parent should not side with DS1 during a parent-DS2 conversation/disagreement.

@coffeerevelsrule how do you think they will cope in the wider world? Are they going off to Uni/working?

My two were a bit like this but at 19 and 17 I was not doing activities or holidays with them! Tell them to make their own plans with their friends while you do your own thing.

Tbh I think your ds2 enjoys conflict. He sounds as if he needs interaction, preferably a ruck, to enjoy life. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, if channelled as he matures. Is he considering going into politics, the law, sport, something like that? He’d make a great union rep! He’s not going to go pale and fade away if someone calls him a little prick.

I think he reacts to your attempts to be fair and reduce conflict by playing up. Normal teenage stuff to some extent.

Given that, tbh I would try and lighten up a bit, depending on how ds1 reacts. Tell them the one who can stand on their head longest gets to sit in the front seat. Or the one that tells the funniest joke (your decision is final). Or… my choice as I hate conflict… just tell them they’re both sitting in the back because it’s your fricking car and your decision.

As for days out, maybe stop trying to do everything together? I can’t really relate to this as we stopped having family holidays when I was 13 so I don’t really get why 4 adults who love each other but don’t get on 100% of the time don’t go off and do their own thing.

This didn't sound too unusual, until I got the part where you said they're 17 and 19! They need to grow up. Stop going on family trips if it's so stressful and tell them why.

It sounds like you favour dc1 though, What's wrong with getting ideas from tiktok? And they can pick the activity but only if they choose one of your suggestions? Awful.

Whilst I understand your frustration about ds2 wanting to do things based off tiktok and you know they may not work out, it's not fair to say they can each choose activities and then try and talk ds2 out of his choice.

It's also unfair that ds2 had to listen to a lecture from his brother about people saying things they don't mean when he'd called his brother a 'little prick'.

It might just be the way you've written it but it does come across that you think ds2 is a pain in the arse. I can see why he might feel ganged up on and unfairly treated from what you've written.

I had to double check the ages of your boys OP as they sound like mine when they were much younger (though I admit they still have their moments occasionally in their 20s.) I never allowed mine to sit in the front seat of the car when DH and I were both there - only resorted to it if a physical fight started in the back (rare) - so that stopped those arguments.

Choices were always difficult as one would never agree with the other - re films, activities, food etc. So we just chose for them and if they didn't want to take part, they stayed at home once they were old enough.

On holiday we made the decisions - if one didn't want to do something, they could stay at the accommodation. When eldest was about 19/ 20 and we were on holiday, they stayed at a hotel we were at quite a bit - talking to friends online, while we went on walks or to the beach etc. They generally stopped coming on holiday with us after that, though youngest still does.

Maybe you need to change the way you operate as I can't see this resolving otherwise. Neither will want to concede to the other / stop dissing their choices. These are ingrained patterns from their childhood.

Sounds like 7 and 9, not 17 and 19! Stop driving them around (I would have threatened to drop DS2 at the nearest train station as soon as he started moaning). Choose the activities you want to do and let them join or not as they prefer.

Yes, I thought people might say it was unusual behaviour given their ages 😕.
Obviously we don't do as many days out as we used to - don't think we have done any from home this summer but both still wanted to come on the holiday and then my mum lives 3 hours away so going to visit her is always going to be a car trip together, and then I like to visit that part off the world as I only go a few times a year and often it's just to my mum's and back so this was a rare opportunity to spend a bit more time there. It's very sad to think the answer is just don't ever go away together.

Regarding the TikTok thing, I absolutely agree there's nothing wrong with it and ds2 often picks activities/films he's seen on there and it's been great. I also agree that if he's been told he can choose that should be honoured, and I said that and it was what happened. However, he can also be very stubborn and averse to choosing things if they're NOT on TikTok and that can be frustrating. In the past he's told me that sometimes he backs himself into a corner with stuff and holds his ground just for the sake of it even when he can see he's in the wrong, and I thought that was what he was doing. I had seen an activity I knew ds2 (and everyone else, but definitely ds2 the most) would love and it was frustrating that he wouldn't even consider it so we all missed out - it was the last day. However, I should probably have left it sooner and definitely not mentioned it in front of ds1 as him getting involved didn't help at all.

The car thing I was just livid. We were stuck in traffic and going past places and buildings of sentimental importance to me and having them bickering on was just too much, hence I was harsh to ds2, yes. It was the fact that while we had been driving he had been silently looking it up on bloody Google maps and working it all out - it got to me. I have spoken to him in the past about sometimes getting your own way not being worth it and it felt like a prime example of him saying as long as I get my fair share in the front nothing else matters. It's also true that he spends more time in the front overall as he cares more and ds1 will back down more. Also, one of the reasons he likes to be in the front is that he gets control of the music and that is my fault as I should have put a stop to it, but he is obsessed with having his music on, which neither ds1 nor I particularly like for the most part, and sulks if he can't or if I won't have it loud enough for him. I forgot that ds1 actually offered quite early on in the argument to let ds2 have the front seat for most of the journey home but with no music on for at least half the trip but ds2 turned this down (though it was what happened in the end) which also annoyed me.

As for ds1 lecturing him, it was helpful and it worked in the end. I don't think he was lecturing, really, just trying to help ds2 back down a bit and see his role in what had happened.

DS1 is a big character - head boy/sports captain/high achiever with a very wide circle of friends and ds2 is also very able and successful to date, but much quieter and shy with a very small friend group. DS1 is the only person he ever stands up to. DS1 acquiesces to him a lot, but every so often, there's a sticking point.

They are talking about doing a trip away just the two of them at some point over the next year - not sure how that will go!

You're justifying all the unhelpful behaviours that are the root cause of the problems in your family!

DS2 has a hard time in this family based on what you've written in the OP and here. He's not getting much space to learn or evolve.

Can you expand on that @concertinacornflake because I don't think I have justified everything - I said the first example was wrong. How does he have a hard time?

Aaah the golden balls older sibling….

This intense situation between these siblings should have been addressed and dealt with years ago. I would sit them both down for a family meeting (with firm rules around the meeting), and ask them both to be honest about how they think you have handled their rivalry. Either that or some family counselling.

I've looked again at your other post.

I told ds2 all he cares about is getting his own way at all costs and he's selfish through and through. Extremely unhelpful approach. I know this was unhelpful but I have explained why it was quite an emotionally charged moment for me.

At this point ds1 is in the back with ds2 (as he chose when we left the carpark) and telling him I said something hurtful because I was upset and therefore ds2 should understand that I didn't mean what I said. I think this is true and say as much. DS1 should not be intervening full stop and the parent should not side with DS1 during a parent-DS2 conversation/disagreement. I didn't side with ds1 as such - I agreed with him saying that I had said that to ds2 not because it's what I think of him or because I hate him, but because I was upset. That was true. I think because it's just the three of us sometimes there is a bit of blurring between the lines of being a parent/sibling, but it does go the other way at times too. I know that's not ideal.

They sound like much younger sibling children. My grandchildren behave like this but they are 8 and 10.
I can't remember my children behaving this way when they were late teens. There were friendly disagreement, arguements and sometimes teasing but nothing serious and never tears or fights about who sits in the front seat.
Are they young for their age in other ways? Do they do things separately? Have they always fought like this to be 'top dog '

But lashing out at someone in the family because it was an emotionally charged moment for you says something too. You could have pulled over, said ‘I’m finding it hard to be here, I’m emotional, this is not the time to be winding each other up, can you both be nice for a bit?’

Im impressed that you listen to music communally. Long before this age I’m afraid I had given in to constant headphones. I did occasionally persuade ds to share a few tracks of his with me but mostly he is solo. I think that’s quite an achievement and a good boundary by you.

I agree with sitting them down together and asking them how they think things could improve. But more in a ‘I love you guys but we do seem to get on each others’ nerves, what could change?’ Rather than a Camp David peace summit level of significance.

You've explained why you've done the unhelpful things and justified them emotionally - but what needs to happen is you set some behaviour boundaries for you all, starting with you.

Your DS1 needs to butt out and stop swearing at DS2 and stop passing judgement.
DS2 needs more space to make choices in line with parameters.
Both need to make a deal on front seat and then zip it.

You need to expect respect, model respect and stop criticising DS2 for making different choices. If you can't emotionally cope with his choices, stop pretending to give him choices. You are giving him choices then expressing frustration with his natural learning process.

Any line blurring is your job to sort. You permit a lot of inappropriate comments between the two boys, in your examples particularly from DS1 to his younger sibling.

I agreed with him saying that I had said that to ds2 not because it's what I think of him or because I hate him, but because I was upset. This is really unhealthy. You should deal with things adult to child without commentary or 'support' from the other child.

Thanks @PermanentTemporary I see what you're saying but I couldn't pull over - it was a city centre with heavy traffic and nowhere to stop until we could get into a carpark. Yes, having a talk would be good, a lot of the time they get on fine/really well, but I'd love to be able to avoid these types of incidents.

Thank you for clarifying @concertinacornflake . I agree with a lot of what you say, but to stress again, I didn't have an emotional reaction to his choice. I saw something I knew he'd like and it was irritating he wouldn't even consider it but we did move on and do his choice and it was fine. Surely it's not wrong to make a suggestion? Where I was wrong was making it in front of ds1.

I also did reprimand ds1 for name-calling his brother. It's pretty difficult to sort things adult to child without the child commenting when you are all stuck in a car together!

If it’s his turn it’s his turn and you don’t get to comment on the motives behind it.

my young adults also love to do stuff they have seen on TikTok.

to be honest interests diverging are why most families don’t holiday together with older teens. The teens want to do totally different things and have a completely different sort of holiday

I have 2 kids who dont get on well so i understand how dynamics arise. I do think this sounds dysfunctional bt hey we all are to a certain extent.

What jumps out for me is the front seat bullshit. Try not to get emotive and call people selfish but your younger sons behaviour around this aounds pretty appalling.

Is he neurodiverse ? The plotting on the map would hugely piss me off and id you can face it if say that should never be rewarded

I do feel for him.being left crying but then again his behaviour sounds unpleasant and to be honest unlikeable.

He is going to lose frienss and partners if he is stubborn and obsessive about point scoring like that

I would be refusing either of them the front seat again until they grow up !

Surely it's not wrong to make a suggestion? If it's his turn, it's his turn. Stop undermining him, stop suggesting as though you know better. Give the poor kid some space and encouragement.

No wonder he falls back to TikTok when he's undermined by you!

You are the driver of the dynamic @coffeerevelsrule and the only way to change it is to stop prioritising your emotional needs and start modelling respect and restraint.

They sound like they’re 6 and 9 instead of young adults.