Can we talk about the GIRLS ....Adolescence

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Watched the 4 part series. Gut wrenching ... I have a boy and desperately want him to value woman, their rights, respect both sexes, and turn into a well rounded human. What Jamie did it unforgivable. But I don't want to talk about that ... I've since just dipped a toe into reading this manosphere stuff and I've got to he honest if women/girls today behave like this - degrading men, bullying, branding people incels and dragging some into an anxiety ridden young adulthood that they'll never be worthy of a relationship ..... WHAT HOPE DO ANY of the sexes have . I'm appaled at hoe Girls can behave to each other (lots of friends with girls) and it opened my eyes to what they can also do to boys. Not excusing the backlash - but CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE GIRLS. They were portrayed as vile in the series too. What needs to happen here ? As I can see a world coming where boys and girls grow up with pretty screwed up views on both sides? So sad to see and I don't know what I'm looking for - just wondered if anyone else thiught about it too? As society we should be focused on both boys and girls .... I'll probably be flamed now.

I don’t think wishing someone ill health is any more palatable to be honest. It really is so stupid.

OP, I think the tone of the response here beautifully illustrates the problem. Society is generally unwilling to consider that this is a complicated issue with responsibility in many places. People love to pile on and locate a single cause; it's all because of rape culture... but where did rape culture come from? Why do boys think hypermasculinity is attractive? Why do girls find it attractive in fantasy, but not (always) in reality? Why are there so many threads on here where people complain about normal mistakes by DH, but the response is always red flags, and divorce.

Boys and men do not know how to behave in relationships, and we don't let them try and get it wrong. We infantilise them, and complain when they try and when they give up, we claim weaponised incompetence.

The response is never rape or assault, though.

Why are there so many threads on here where people complain about normal mistakes by DH, but the response is always red flags, and divorce.
People don't recommend divorce for normal mistakes though.

Me too. I am now genuinely more worried about what is online given that a woman (presuming OP is a woman) has “dipped her toe in” to what is online and has come out believing that girls are part of the problem and just need to #bekind

I can't take you seriously @Noangelbuthavingfun ....

Meant to quote this post

Vile behaviour from the girls? Are you talking about Katie’s mate kicking off in the playground? I saw that as completely justified FEMALE RAGE!

You have it slightly backwards. For centuries men had it “easy”. All they had to do was literally be male. Women either had no choice or needed them, simply to exist. Of course it was easy to navigate when you could do whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted with no consequences. Of course it was easy when women were not humans with rights and wants and needs, just commodities there for their comfort and entertainment. Of course it was easy to navigate when raping your wife wasn’t a crime, but your right(as late as the 90’s in England) , or sexually harassing your secretary, or a million other things and the only thing expected of you was to bring home the “bacon”. And if you didn’t, or you drank it all or whatever? Meh, it was the stupid woman’s fault anyway . It was indeed easy.

But, society changed, contraception became freely available, women got rights and started being acknowledged as actual humans and shock/horror, they realised they had choices and became “choosy”. They didn’t NEED a man anymore, for respectability, for a bank account, for a mortgage, for many other things.

Now, that equality, those rights, that choice is seen as oppression by men. Because to some of them (too many of them) , women still only exist as a commodity, there for their entertainment and comfort. And just like they’d kick a broken appliance for not working properly, they kick (sometimes literally) women for not performing properly.

Do you know that incels believe the availability of contraception is the worst thing that happened to MEN?

It's very concerning to me, OP, that you, as the mother of a young boy, have looked at the problem of toxic masculinity and concluded that it is the fault of girls and women.

People recommend divorce for patterns of behaviour or the same mistake over the course of years. A red flag means you take note to see if it happens again and not overlook it because you’re in love. If it never happens again then great, if it does then your previous note should help working out if this is a real problem.

What I mean is not doing housework isn’t inherently harmful but never doing housework over the course of years is divorce territory because it shows a selfish mindset where housework is beneath you but acceptable for your spouse to do for you as if you’re a child. When you see your spouse as a child or parent then they cease to become an equal romantic partner and it breeds inevitable resentment. There might be a housework incident that is the last straw but it’s everything that has come before that which is the problem.

As for weaponised incompetence, it is a tactical move used by older children to get out of doing things they don’t fancy. That’s annoying enough without your spouse trying the same. If you don’t do it, then they have to and it slowly shifts the relationship to parent/child which is where resentment breeds.

Everyone needs to be able to deal with rejection. One of the most important things a parent can teach a child is that wanting something does not confer the right to have it. Unfortunately, some parents don't bother, or are actively conveying the opposite message.

We teach our kids to deal with disappointment in a proportional/acceptable way when they are age 1- 3 ish. Do these men forget or does their baby behaviour return because it’s unchecked for many years? Or did they live with men who get their way through aggression and repeat that behaviour?

@Noangelbuthavingfun wtf did I just read

you are accusing girls of creating incel culture and the manosphere?

are you new to the 21st century and the internet? Have I horribly misunderstood your post?

It all starts in the home. With useless sexist dads who don't respect their wife and mums who act as if their boy can do now wrong. In families where parents genuinely respect and love each other without any sexist crap and raise their dc with firm boundaries and lots of attention, boys and girls usually come out rather lovely.

I find it worrying when grown adults call a 13 year old child an incel. He was a 13 year old who certainly had a disturbing view of girls and women, partly due to whatever shit he had viewed online, the shit kids chat to each other at school, and the gender stereotypes being played out in his home. But why does that mean this 13 year old child is "involuntary celibate"? Let's try and remember the meaning of the phrase. Katie's messages included emojies telling Jamie he would be a virgin all his life (as confirmed by the detective's ds). Katie was a kid so fair enough, but as adults we should do better when talking about kids.

It’s progress that women and girls, in the western world at least, can say no at all. For pretty much all of human evolution and in many parts of the world today, they could not / can not. So it’s still a battle to be won, to really embed the notion that women have the right to say no when a man wants to have sex with her.

no one has mentioned porn yet. Boys (and girls) are getting all kind of fucked up ideas about what sex is like, or what’s within the bounds of normal from porn. And they learn nothing good about consent or boundaries.

my sister works in student guidance / protection at a major uk uni. She has utterly depressing stories about predatory and abusive behaviour of male students. But equally she has many distressing stories about how confused girls are: the massive pressure to be ‘cool’ with what would until recently have been considered quite extreme sexual acts, and basically not knowing that they can say no. That no matter that they were drunk, flirting, had previously hooked up, had slept with his friends, had gone home with him etc, they can still say no.

There's so much horror in that list, but I have to ask: why the low iron level?

Oh thank you. Posted before I saw this response.

I think everyone has said it but I wanted to highlight to you @Noangelbuthavingfunthat levels of violence against women have not reduced in the last 40- ODD YEARS. This is a male behaviour problem and not a modern phenomenon created by women ‘bullying’ boys on the internet. Yes we all must raise our boys and girls to be respectful of others. This includes girls calling out boys and men on the misogyny that leads to violence.

The trouble is, kids take words with serious meanings and bandy them about without even thinking.
The number of times I've had to explain to kids what 'nonce' actually means, is ridiculous.

There have always been girls who are confident and attractive and mean to boys they consider less so.

There have always been boys who do the same to girls. Based on my own experience as a young teen, before I was considered attractive and therefore acceptable, I would say more do (fridge, virgin, dog, munter, fat dog [i wasn'tfat], speccy, look at the state of you etc etc). Boys seem entitled to comment on girls in a way girls don't tend to to boys.

It is more often a girl who will come to me and ask to be moved away from a boy, rather than the other way round.

Where I live most of the antisocial behaviour, and basically all of the violent crime, is committed by boys and men.

It's almost certainly the same where you live too.

This is an interesting point I’ve not seen picked up on. It’s interesting he didn’t fight back and was then called by another boy as you point out.

Worryingly on X since I read a few posts about the show I have been promoted a number of videos entitled “she wanted equality and found out” these showing women and girls hitting men and boys and then getting knocked out by the man/boy.

I am male and do not follow any manosphere creators. This must also be going to teen boys phones. Very concerning.

He was a 13 year old who certainly had a disturbing view of girls and women, partly due to whatever shit he had viewed online, the shit kids chat to each other at school, and the gender stereotypes being played out in his home. But why does that mean this 13 year old child is "involuntary celibate"? Let's try and remember the meaning of the phrase.

Kids don't pay attention to what "incel" actually comes from. Much like they don't actually know where the Red Pill reference comes from, or why the save icon is a floppy disk.

Yes, that's what it means, but it's become a broader reference to a particular type of angry man or boy with a particular view of women. The fact the term was initially coined by grown men doesn't really matter. It's evolved. The focus on the "involuntary celibate" meaning is one of the reasons the police weren't getting it at first. It's not just about getting sex. It's about getting girls/women full stop. The issue is, incels conflate the two. There is no "relationship" without sex as the focus because that's all women and girls are good for.

Trigger warnings - rape, paedophilia, murder, misogyny.

I’m going to be completely blunt here, because this is too serious for polite debate: incel culture and the manosphere are not just “boys lashing out” or reacting to being hurt. They are part of a growing extremist movement that glorifies rape, murder, child abuse, and terrorism, and radicalizes young men into believing women should be punished for existing.

When you suggest that the way girls treat boys is in any way equivalent to this, or somehow justifies the “backlash,” you’re not just missing the point—you’re enabling one of the most dangerous ideologies facing young people today.

Let me break down what incel culture actually is.

At the core of incel culture is the belief that men are entitled to sex and romantic attention, and women are evil for denying them. They often claim that rejection is as traumatic as being raped, something they call “reverse rape”.

Some incels argue for “enforced monogamy”, where women are legally assigned to men. Others go further, saying women should be raped as a way to restore male dominance. This isn’t fringe—it’s mainstream in many incel communities.

Incels dehumanize women with terms like:

• “Femoid” – a non-human female, literally a female humanoid.
• “Roastie” – a disgusting slur used to mock women’s bodies.
• “Stacy” – a woman who should be punished for being attractive and rejecting “losers.

They believe women should be punished for choosing who they date, and that violence is justified revenge.

This culture has already claimed lives, and its heroes are mass murderers. Let’s be specific:

• Elliot Rodger (California, 2014): Murdered six people, injured 14. His 141-page manifesto laid out his plan to exterminate women for rejecting him. He is worshipped by incels as the “Supreme Gentleman.”
• Rodger’s quote:
• “I will enter the hottest sorority house and slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up blonde slut I see inside.”
• Alek Minassian (Toronto, 2018): Drove a van into a crowd, killing 10 people, injuring 16. He praised Rodger and called for an “Incel Rebellion.” His act was labeled terrorism—the first incel-related attack to receive that designation.
• Scott Beierle (Florida, 2018): Shot and killed two women at a yoga studio. His YouTube rants were full of hatred for women and praise for other incel killers.
• Jake Davison (UK, 2021): Murdered five people, including his mother. Posted incel videos calling women “vile” and blaming feminism for his failures.

And it keeps going. Dozens of planned attacks have been stopped, and many more women have been stalked, doxxed, and terrorized.

Incel forums don’t just hate women—they fetishize underage girls. Many users argue that women over 25 are worthless and men should have access to “pure” girls before they can say no.

They advocate for grooming and the abolition of age of consent laws, believing that “consent” is feminist brainwashing. This leads to open fantasies about raping underage girls and treating them as breeding stock.

The “rape pill” is a common term, meaning acceptance of rape as normal and good for society. They believe mass rape is inevitable and necessary for men to reclaim control.

Some forums openly discuss rape techniques, share child sexual abuse material, and fantasize about sex slavery camps where women are forcibly impregnated.

Incels believe in an impending “Beta Uprising”—a mass, violent revolt where incels will kill women and sexually successful men in revenge.
Forums contain bomb-making instructions, blueprints for school shootings, and “kill counts” ranking the most “successful” incel terrorists.
Many incels idolize suicide bombers and mass shooters, seeing them as martyrs for the cause. This is misogynist terrorism, and intelligence agencies are alarmed. The FBI and Canadian intelligence both classify this movement as a domestic terror threat.

This is the part you need to hear: boys are being pulled into this world easily, starting with “harmless” YouTube videos about “alpha males” and “female nature.” They’re told women are liars, manipulators, and that rejection is abuse.
They’re taught to hate women and see themselves as victims, justified in revenge.
And yes, boys are hurting. But pain does not excuse hatred. Not when the result is mass violence, abuse, and dead women. Girls being unkind, rejecting someone, or even bullying is not remotely comparable to this.

Women have been:

• Doxxed—personal info shared for harassment.
• Stalked by incels who feel “owed” a relationship.
• Threatened with rape and murder.
• Murdered—by men radicalized online.

This isn’t “boys being boys” or “mean girls causing backlash.” This is organized, escalating, gender-based terrorism.

Let me be clear: suggesting girls are just as bad is not only false, it is catastrophically dangerous. It lets young men avoid accountability and gives them permission to dive deeper into hate.

We must:

• Educate boys early about misogyny.
• Monitor online spaces where this ideology spreads.
• Refuse to minimize the threat.

This is a hate movement, no different from white supremacy or religious extremism. It is killing people. And we cannot fight it if we’re still asking “but what about the girls?”

The answer is protect both sexes by stopping the radicalization of boys—before it’s too late.

Yes but my point was that we as adults can do better than putting these labels on kids.