Can we talk about the GIRLS ....Adolescence

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Watched the 4 part series. Gut wrenching ... I have a boy and desperately want him to value woman, their rights, respect both sexes, and turn into a well rounded human. What Jamie did it unforgivable. But I don't want to talk about that ... I've since just dipped a toe into reading this manosphere stuff and I've got to he honest if women/girls today behave like this - degrading men, bullying, branding people incels and dragging some into an anxiety ridden young adulthood that they'll never be worthy of a relationship ..... WHAT HOPE DO ANY of the sexes have . I'm appaled at hoe Girls can behave to each other (lots of friends with girls) and it opened my eyes to what they can also do to boys. Not excusing the backlash - but CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE GIRLS. They were portrayed as vile in the series too. What needs to happen here ? As I can see a world coming where boys and girls grow up with pretty screwed up views on both sides? So sad to see and I don't know what I'm looking for - just wondered if anyone else thiught about it too? As society we should be focused on both boys and girls .... I'll probably be flamed now.

Oh I see. I was thinking low iron levels signifying heavy periods and couldn’t work out the rationale.

That list is truly astonishing.

I think this needs to be writ large in any discussion of the how "accurate" or "brilliant" this drama series is (it's good drama and compelling, but it drama not documentary). It also fails to acknowledge or address this discrepancy and ends without actually taking a stance - the implication being it's a bit "both sides".

There are some fantastic and clear posts on here that do address the issues properly. Thank you to those posters.

The different takes on this show and the criticisms/unconscious cognitive bias are both depressing and fascinating. On another thread a poster said they wish they hadn't shown Katie bullying Jamie.

Except she wasn't bullying him. She felt societal pressure to share nude pics, and sent them. A boy then shared them everywhere. She felt the societal consequences of that and was ostracised (ignoring the irony and double standard). Jamie then specifically targeted her, thinking that she would be grateful for male attention because no other boy would want her because she was damaged goods, for doing the exact thing the boys had pressured her to do. And when she rejected him anyway, she was asserting a right that men and boys don't think twice about - the right to say no - yet women and girls get punished for it in a multitude of ways all the time. And she got killed for it.

I read this in the OP: I've got to he honest if women/girls today behave like this - degrading men, bullying, branding people incels and dragging some into an anxiety ridden young adulthood that they'll never be worthy of a relationship ..... WHAT HOPE DO ANY of the sexes have . I'm appaled at hoe Girls can behave to each other (lots of friends with girls) and it opened my eyes to what they can also do to boys. Not excusing the backlash - but CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE GIRLS. They were portrayed as vile in the series too.

And it comes back to that old saying: Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.

Women and girls are mocked, degraded, bullied, called all kinds of names, and yes, beaten, raped and killed by men and boys.

Katie's friend knocked that boy to the ground in a rage and hit him multiple times. Then he was mocked by another boy and called a 'sausage' (degrading language) for being 'beaten by a girl'. Who's the toxic sex here?

Why have you called the girls 'vile' for calling the manosphere-following boys 'incels'... when that's exactly the path those boys are taking? God forbid the female sex stand up for themselves eh.

@BBQHulaHoops not yet watched the programme but discussions in news etc I have seen have been about what to do about men/boys

Out of interest @Noangelbuthavingfun , can you explain your username?

Brilliant response. Brilliant. You’ve nailed it.

Well said

I do think culturally we've shifted over the last decade or so in a way that has further inflammed separation of the sexes, encouraging young people to view themselves and the other sex as inherently threatening, and encourage degrading and dismissing others as a way to protect themselves and show status. I think this type of inflammation by demographic group has happened across many parts of society, sex being one of the larger ones with more consequences.

While I get the appeal, I strongly disagree with the Atwood quote that men's greatest fear from women is that is women will laugh at them. I find it discourages us listening to what boys and men have said around their experiences and issues that has long included concerns of violence - whether by a female partner or those she gets on her side to do so - and not being believed, concerns of long-term deception, among other concerns that women commonly have about men. The sexes are different, but not that different. I know my son was terrified when he was 15 and being stalked and sexually threatened by a pair of women who used his size and the idea that he should be flattered as an excuse, his fear that led him to be found cowering and hiding to escape them had very little to do with that they dismissed his fears as funny. I'm glad the school didn't treat him differently because of his sex and the sex of the perpetrators.

Statistically, yes, women are far more likely to be killed by a partner or family member, while men are more likely to be killed by a stranger or only barely know. Men's stats are skewed by being statistically far more likely to be murdered (last stat i saw was 72% of murder victims are male), so I don't view the 5% of the significantly larger amount of murdered men being killed by a female partner as a tiny amount, and from what I've read, that doesn't include where a female partner has gotten outside help to carry out violence. I don't view the official stat that 1 in 6 men who've suffered from domestic violence to be that much smaller than the 1 in 4 for women, particularly when considering both will include estimated amounts of under-reporting that is well-documented. We're also aware that women being in a same-sex relationship is not really a protective factor against relationship violence, this isn't solely a mixed sex issue, it's a people issue.

Everyone experiences suffering, it's part of life. This cultural push that everything is a binary with one side suffering & deserving and the other side privileged & oppressing based on a born demographic has only made the issues of society worse. That's part of why some branches of feminism have focused on the cultural division of the sexes as a root cause and the solutions including working to bridge the divide. I do think that's desperately needed.

2 women a week are killed by their partner / ex partner. Violence against women and girls is a much bigger issue.

@WhenYouSayNothingAtAllyou have an excellent knack of wording this so clearly, and really detailed knowledge. I teach about this and have learned things today. Thank you.

This thread has gotten under my skin. I keep going back to the OP and wondering how the hell someone looking into the manosphere ends up concluding that it's because women degrade men?

It's genuinely bothered me and I'd be interested in what you actually read @Noangelbuthavingfun. Because it seems to me like you were drawn into the incel mindset yourself.

All this. A very important point that a lot of people are (deliberately?) missing.

This wasn’t a boy with a crush, or puppy love or unrequited love who got cruelly rebuffed.

This was a boy who deliberately targeted a girl who was vulnerable, had “fallen” socially and was weak in his eyes. More akin to a predator picking his prey , rather than starting a relationship.

This was never to end well.

This was a boy who deliberately targeted a girl who was vulnerable, had “fallen” socially and was weak in his eyes. More akin to a predator picking his prey , rather than starting a relationship.

Exactly, and the 80/20 rule was important.
If you believe that 80% of women only find 20% of men attractive, and you don't consider yourself part of the 20% then the idea is you resort to targeting women when they're vulnerable and weak.

I’ve actually only just barely touched the surface because I didn’t/don’t have the (emotionally/mentally)capacity to fully dive into it , but I did quite a bit of reading, read an incel’s murderer manifesto , I used to be on meme sites that got overtaken in time and completely changed by the incel community so I probably have a bit more exposure and understanding than the average person. You’re very welcome.

I always have to laugh at the patheticness of the incel statement that 80% of women are only interested in 20% of men ie only the very good looking men stand any chance with most women.

Develop a personality and you'll do just fine would be my advice. Unfortunately they're all whiny, entitled bastards who would rather blame women for not just falling at their feet than take a long, hard look at themselves.

Men's stats are skewed by being statistically far more likely to be murdered (last stat i saw was 72% of murder victims are male),

Yes. It's an issue of male violence. Men kill men and men kill women. The high number of men being killed is also as a result of gang violence, which is, by and large, a male issue.

so I don't view the 5% of the significantly larger amount of murdered men being killed by a female partner as a tiny amount, and from what I've read, that doesn't include where a female partner has gotten outside help to carry out violence.

You mean cases where, again, it's men killing men? Regardless of whether a woman has gotten outside help" it's the men doing it.

5% is a very small amount. If 5% of men are killed by women, that means 95% are killed by men.

Let's also remember that 5% includes men killed by female partners that have been persistently abused by the man for years, that kill as an escape or out of fear for life. Let's also remember that women in those circumstances have historically always been more likely to use a weapon and therefore be given higher tariffs, whereas men that killed their partners with their bare hands are given lighter sentences because they had the strength to simply throttle her to death instead and argue loss of control.

It's also skewed by the fact male crimes are being reported as female crimes.

The vast majority of women are killed by men. The vast majority of men are killed by men. Pretending it is not a sex-based issue because a much smaller % of men are killed by women is baffling to me. It's complete whataboutery.

I don't view the official stat that 1 in 6 men who've suffered from domestic violence to be that much smaller than the 1 in 4 for women,

It also includes male-on-male violence in relationships.

Domestic violence needs to be tackled in all forms. yes. But domestic violence and domestic murder are not comparable at all.

Katie wasn't bullying Jamie, he was one of many who were bullying her.

Katie said No.

Katie called Jamie an incel. Jamie was an incel .

I honestly can't believe anyone needs this pointing out.

OP I absolutely do not want to flame you. I agree with you that we need to work on both sexes to improve this.

But, it sounds like you've gone to the manosphere to find out about the manosphere. That's like reading Mein Kampf, in isolation, to learn about the causes for World War 2. You can't read the crazy people's propaganda without reading a heck of a lot of discussion from other sources if you want to come to an educated and balanced view.

But coming back to the girls. I agree with all the previous posters who are pointing out the disproportionality that Katie hurt Jamie's feelings and Jamie response was to kill her. We cannot blame the victim.

Having said that we can blame society. This manosphere crap is pervasive. Kids don't need to go looking for it to be influenced by it. Year 4 boys are mewing in the classroom (a tounge placement exercise which is meant to improve jawline definition - strong male jawline is one of those desirable traits according to the manosphere). Do these 7 and 8 year old boys spend time watching Andrew Tate? Do they define themselves as an incel? Do they care about how they look to girls at that age? Or are they just copying something they saw their favourite Minecraft playing youtuber do?

Teen girls talk about desirable traits, "I wouldn't date someone under 6 foot" "he has no cheeckbones". It isn't new that we fetishize different parts of the opposite sex's body. In the 15 century, women looked for a man with "a well turned calf". Society tells us what is attractive. Now society is being influenced by the manosphere. Hyper masculinity is becoming attractive to our teen girls

So why is the manosphere gaining traction? My opinion is that it is a solution for boys and men with no idea how to fit into the world. Vulnerable boys and men, who don't feel traditionally masculine, and so feel less than. They feel inadequate.

Think about the number of threads on here where women are infantalising their husbands. Mothering them, while at the same time pulling them down and ripping them apart. We (society - men and women) seem to think that men are incapable. Then think about the number of "loose the bastard" threads on here. Men who lie and cheat and abuse. The misogynists with a foot in the manosphere. Two absolutely polerised views of men. Think about repensations of these two views on the TV, media, film.

Where is the middle ground? Where are the representations of men who are equal to the women in their lives? They exist. I married one. My dad is one. My brother in law is one. Where do we see women who respect the men in their lives and men who respect them back, who support each other and don't bitch being their partner's back to their friends. Where are positive healthy relationships shown?

While they consider women like Emma Stone and Pam from the Office …. “Average”.

What they actually mean is that 80% (of the top 20% looks wise) of women date the top 20% of men.

The real irony is that their criterion and lists is what automatically and drastically reduces their dating pool. When you add in their behaviours, attitudes, words, anger , aggression, entitlement etc. that pool becomes a drop from a leaky tap. There’s nothing involuntary about it, it’s self inflicted and it’s not a life sentence either.

Incel is short for Involuntary Celibate and is a word created by men who are angry that they are not getting as much sex as they think they deserve because the top 20% of men (Chads) are shagging the top 80% of women.

Toxic manosphere stuff is about women not being allowed to say no because they are there for sexually gratification of men but like extreme conservatism, they can’t be whores either. 13 year old girls shouldn’t be pressured for nudes and sex in the first place - this is on men and boys.

In the case of boys I understand how online pornography makes them want more extreme pics but grown men must know deep down how online porn has affected their enjoyment of sex - particularly with other people. I assume that some woman hating culture is based on men feeling inadequate each time they are wanking to online porn and thinking that they shouldn’t have to gratify themselves. Sex has never and shouldn’t ever be available in an instant because a man is horny and wants gratifying. Online porn gives the impression that sex can be switched on like the power button of a computer but you can’t just click your fingers and have it. Even people on sex apps looking for hookups need to chat to each other as foreplay before they meet.

Most women will have had a situation where they’ve worried about a man’s reaction to what they’ve had to say and know of a situation where a man has been told no and he’s kicked off. This is on men. It’s difficult for a woman to say no to a man that she doesn’t know - they can’t be nice or the man thinks that there will be a chance in future or that she can be nagged into givng him a go and sometimes women know that the answer will always be no with this man.

I still think it’s a bit of a stretch someone putting low iron levels on that list. It’s just ridiculous. Why not just put submissive on the list ?

Actually, in another massive ironic twist, the community and term was started and coined by a WOMAN. It was in the late 90s/early’00s and it was a forum/community for people(both men and women ) who were lonely, found it hard to start a relationship, never had sex , hadn’t been in a relationship for a long time etc. Apparently it was a pretty decent and supportive community overall. She came up with invcel (involuntary celibate) , then incel at someone’s suggestion.

She left the community behind, things changed and it got taken over by men. Very angry men, that hate women, while calling themselves a term introduced by a woman.

As much as it’s claimed not to be based on the murder of Ava white, I think it is.

Ava was killed because she was feisty and stuck up for herself and her friends.

Then there was the more recent one, where a girl was killed over a row about a teddy bear.

But sure, it’s the girls at fault here.

There are worse ones out there, that basically translate to sex slave. This is one of the more “palatable “ ones where they cling to some veneer of civility/respectability and use daft euphemisms .