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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Can we talk about the GIRLS ....Adolescence

124 replies

Noangelbuthavingfun · 23/03/2025 08:22

Watched the 4 part series. Gut wrenching ... I have a boy and desperately want him to value woman, their rights, respect both sexes, and turn into a well rounded human. What Jamie did it unforgivable. But I don't want to talk about that ... I've since just dipped a toe into reading this manosphere stuff and I've got to he honest if women/girls today behave like this - degrading men, bullying, branding people incels and dragging some into an anxiety ridden young adulthood that they'll never be worthy of a relationship ..... WHAT HOPE DO ANY of the sexes have . I'm appaled at hoe Girls can behave to each other (lots of friends with girls) and it opened my eyes to what they can also do to boys. Not excusing the backlash - but CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE GIRLS. They were portrayed as vile in the series too. What needs to happen here ? As I can see a world coming where boys and girls grow up with pretty screwed up views on both sides? So sad to see and I don't know what I'm looking for - just wondered if anyone else thiught about it too? As society we should be focused on both boys and girls .... I'll probably be flamed now.

OP posts:
WhenYouSayNothingAtAll · 23/03/2025 16:23

MissDoubleU · 23/03/2025 16:17

Men: create the word incel, themselves, as a badge of honour to their shitty world views and justify their hatred for and belief they are in all ways above women
OP: Can’t believe these women who are calling men Incels. It’s bullying. You can see why these men hate them so much, can’t you?

Mindblowing.

A woman coined the word incel. They just stole it and bastardised to the point of no recognition. As they usually do.

TerrysCIockworkOrange · 23/03/2025 16:24

@Noangelbuthavingfun so many far more eloquent responses than I could hope to write in this thread, but I keep going back to your OP.
If, as you say, you ‘dipped a toe’ into the manosphere, and your summation afterwards was to come here and ask ‘so what do we do about the GIRLS?’, does that not underline to you how incredibly dangerous the manosphere is? It got you sympathising with the incel mindset after barely any involvement whatsoever!

Violetparis · 23/03/2025 16:31

NoBinturongsHereMate · 23/03/2025 16:13

Originally The Matrix - Neo is offered the choice of 2 pills. One will let him go back to his ordanry life and forget all about the matrix and aliens controlling the world; the other unplugged him from the matrix so he can see the world as it really is and fight it.

The idea was adopted by the incel/manosphere movement as a metaphor for 'waking up' to the horrible oppression they say men face and how they need to take back control.

Thanks. I've never seen the Matrix so presuming the red pill is a reference to someone rejecting their previous worldview. I have a friend whose son is showing worrying signs of being influenced by this ideology, it's frightening.

SleeplessInWherever · 23/03/2025 16:32

WhenYouSayNothingAtAll · 23/03/2025 16:22

Yes sometimes people are shit. Men and women. Girls and boys.

But there’s a massive discrepancy in numbers , actual behaviour and reasoning.

You mentioned dick pics for example. Were those solicited?

Have you seen the everyonesinvited website? The horror of them having testimonials from hundreds of PRIMARY schools?

Have you seen the wecantconsenttothis website?

Have you done any actual reading and research, talked to any women that have been victims of male violence (many of them since childhood)? Have you listened to them? Have you actually bothered?

Have you “dipped your toe” into the manosphere to see exactly how much hate and anger and contempt those men have towards women?

Or did you just stop at people are shit and women do it too?

If you’re asking me if I’ve researched the lived experience of women, having spent my life living as a girl/woman - no.

The challenges of being female and male violence aren’t alien to me, I don’t live in a bubble. I am aware and have experienced male violence and poor behaviour.

What I am able to do, is separate the two and answer what the post actually was about.

Were the girls in Adolescence innocent - no. Does that excuse Jamie murdering a young girl - obviously not.

I’m not conflating the two, or suggesting it was deserved, I’m saying that the show did also show girls bullying and attacking, because it did.

PsychoHotSauce · 23/03/2025 16:56

but I don’t think we can ignore that women and girls don’t always behave impeccably - we’re not saints.

I'm not sure suggesting we, as women and girls, should behave impeccably helps either. Big societal changes only seems to happen when oppressed groups finally have had enough and revolt. Women only got the vote as a result of the Suffragettes which eventually escalated to setting off bombs. What good does 'modelling good behaviour' do - just so you can whine about the shit men and boys do while your hands are spotlessly clean? So we can be the oppressed and murdered group sadly polishing our halos? It won't stop the misogyny and violence.

What is interesting is when women and girls DO behave like men, they get called on it every single time, threads like this are started, and they are condemned for 'behaving so badly'. This is so useful, 1) for highlighting the double standard, and 2) for getting the male apologists to out themselves. We see you.

FeministUnderTheCatriarchy · 23/03/2025 17:39

NoBinturongsHereMate · 23/03/2025 16:08

Quoting the whole thing because it needs repeating.

Look at the position of women in Iran and Afghanistan now. Look at photos from both countries in the 1970s.

Look at the men celebrating Trump's re-election with the 'Your Body, My Choice' slogan.

Look at Trump's anti-DEI direcrive removing photos of and references to women's participation in WWII and other historical events.

We cannot afford to be complacent.

And on the compulsory monogamy point, you may think that's only only a few extremists. But even people like Jordan Peterson at the most 'respectable' end of the manosphere have spoken in favour of this.

Thank you, it is terrifying and I am afraid of how many people are burying their heads in the sand and not looking at the bigger picture here.

I have spoken about Afghanistan here on Mumsnet, and how I truly believe that we are not as far removed as we would like to think.

I was mocked and told I was paranoid in replying comments.

People believe that the UK is safe from being under the rule of religious extremism, and that may be so... But we are certainly not safe from misogyny and the growing hatred of women.

This next generation of young men are being indoctrinated and they are going to be the ones in politics and as CEOs etc in the not so distant future.

I truly believe it wouldn't take much for the tide to turn and even men who are somewhat decent could switch if given not only permission, but encouragement.

It is a real problem that most parents and people in general don't actually know what is going on in these online forums. They think it is niche, only a few little weirdos to shake their heads at.

With the popularity of Andrew Tate and other red pill influences like Fresh & Fit and all the others, this way of thinking is now mainstream. It is on Tiktok, it is on Instagram. You have comedians and celebrities dipping their toes in.

The Handmaid's Tale could absolutely be our future and it isn't as ludicrous as a lot of people here like to pretend.

Fertility rates are falling, women are choosing to remain celibate, men are getting angrier and violence is at an all time high. They have media that affirms their anger and misogyny. As much content as they can consume.

They don't need to seek it out these days, the algorithms tease it and the second they show even remote interest, they are inundated with things designed to fuel their hatred.

SleeplessInWherever · 23/03/2025 17:39

PsychoHotSauce · 23/03/2025 16:56

but I don’t think we can ignore that women and girls don’t always behave impeccably - we’re not saints.

I'm not sure suggesting we, as women and girls, should behave impeccably helps either. Big societal changes only seems to happen when oppressed groups finally have had enough and revolt. Women only got the vote as a result of the Suffragettes which eventually escalated to setting off bombs. What good does 'modelling good behaviour' do - just so you can whine about the shit men and boys do while your hands are spotlessly clean? So we can be the oppressed and murdered group sadly polishing our halos? It won't stop the misogyny and violence.

What is interesting is when women and girls DO behave like men, they get called on it every single time, threads like this are started, and they are condemned for 'behaving so badly'. This is so useful, 1) for highlighting the double standard, and 2) for getting the male apologists to out themselves. We see you.

I’m sorry but I think you’ve misunderstood. I haven’t apologised for males, or even hinted that their behaviour and violence is acceptable. I think I’ve actually said the opposite.

I also haven’t suggested that women should be modelling good behaviour for men to follow. What I said, is that the expectation to not murder, abuse or violently attack each other is universal.

I think where you’re struggling is that I don’t see an excuse for bullying, or treating people poorly, regardless of sex.

I’m not saying women should be kind and men can just get on with it, I’m saying that there is no excuse for shitty behaviour, from anyone.

On your comment about women escalating to setting off bombs, for example, that would definitely still be extremism and terrorism - just of the female variety.

Twinstudy · 23/03/2025 22:16

booksunderthebed · 23/03/2025 14:50

It certainly seemed to me Katie was being very nasty to Jamie.

Of course, that didn't mean she should be killed.

But that sort of behaviour has resulted in suicide.

Even if it just results in very unhappy people.

She was being very nasty to him? She called him out when he thought she should go out with him because she was vulnerable. She said no. That's about it.

Jesus we really are in trouble when this is the take on a largely female dominated forum

theprincessthepea · 23/03/2025 22:59

I have a boy and a girl.

I want my daughter to be more cautious around boys/men. When I was a teen, there were older men and boys my age that did take advantage of girls - and I think it is scary that women have been voiceless against men (generally) for a long time. By the end of my teens, I really didn’t like men - yes I had good male friends, I liked them, but in general I was just so disgusted at what was normalised that I vowed to myself to not give men the time of day. I had to go through experiences to get this. How sad is that for a teen girl! And so if a young girl needs to stand up for herself she should - BUT I would like us to acknowledge that there are good guys out there and I do wish their voices were amplified. It’s so easy to see “men are trash” content and communities - but it really comes from a place of needing protection.

I want my son to be cautious around girls for different reasons. I won’t go into it. He is still very young. But I wish the world didn’t paint all men with a single brush. Men face social pressures. There are more conversations on men’s mental health and this is needed - men need safe space too but right now, there are too many toxic spaces - and I do think that there is a discussion that needs to be had about our expectations of what it is to be a man. I think many people feel that you can outwardly be rude to boys/ men and we expect them to take all of the rejection. But men are humans also.

PsychoHotSauce · 24/03/2025 07:11

I think where you’re struggling is that I don’t see an excuse for bullying, or treating people poorly, regardless of sex.
I’m not saying women should be kind and men can just get on with it, I’m saying that there is no excuse for shitty behaviour, from anyone.

I'm not the one 'struggling'. The definition of bullying is centered around targeting someone who is vulnerable. In the cases in the show (Katie's name calling, and Katie's friend punching the boy to the ground), both were a reaction to the boys' behaviour. That can't be bullying.

And I don't think we need to 'excuse' reactionary behaviour. Day in day out dealing with misogyny, sexual comments, pressure to send nudes or you're 'frigid', send the nudes and you're a slut. A dedicated campaign every single day from almost all the boys you spend 30 hours a week in close proximity to every week, to undermine, belittle, diminish, and devalue you, just because you happened to be born a girl. So Katie calls him names online, and Katie's friend punches the boy who supplied the knife that killed her... and you think there's no excuse? How are the toxic incel boys in any way 'vulnerable' to ever be defined as victims of bullying?

This smacks of the police who label a woman getting beaten up by her partner as a 'domestic' and takes no action, because the partner has scratches on his face. Despite the fact that she has a black eye and suspected broken ribs and the scratches are clearly defensive*, the police just class it as a mutual fight. This happens all the time.

*The irony is, that if she was murdered, they would be classed as defensive scratches on the coroner's report, DNA taken from her fingernails, and used as evidence that he murdered her. But because she didn't die, she's as bad as he is. Make it make sense.

AndiPandiPuddinAndPie · 24/03/2025 07:17

I really do think we as women are in the battle of our lives in terms of having any rights at all. Men have the power. Men will not give that power up without a fight. As soon as abortion was outlawed in the USA I thought to myself this is where we go back to servant status. I think they’ve come to the conclusion that the little women have gone to far now and need to be put back in their box. I really hope I’m wrong BTW, but even when I talk to my friends about inequality in relationships / double standards etc they just laugh and think I’m a mad feminist. Hopefully I am but there is a very worrying vibe at the moment. I’m glad this program has opened the discussion though

SleeplessInWherever · 24/03/2025 07:26

PsychoHotSauce · 24/03/2025 07:11

I think where you’re struggling is that I don’t see an excuse for bullying, or treating people poorly, regardless of sex.
I’m not saying women should be kind and men can just get on with it, I’m saying that there is no excuse for shitty behaviour, from anyone.

I'm not the one 'struggling'. The definition of bullying is centered around targeting someone who is vulnerable. In the cases in the show (Katie's name calling, and Katie's friend punching the boy to the ground), both were a reaction to the boys' behaviour. That can't be bullying.

And I don't think we need to 'excuse' reactionary behaviour. Day in day out dealing with misogyny, sexual comments, pressure to send nudes or you're 'frigid', send the nudes and you're a slut. A dedicated campaign every single day from almost all the boys you spend 30 hours a week in close proximity to every week, to undermine, belittle, diminish, and devalue you, just because you happened to be born a girl. So Katie calls him names online, and Katie's friend punches the boy who supplied the knife that killed her... and you think there's no excuse? How are the toxic incel boys in any way 'vulnerable' to ever be defined as victims of bullying?

This smacks of the police who label a woman getting beaten up by her partner as a 'domestic' and takes no action, because the partner has scratches on his face. Despite the fact that she has a black eye and suspected broken ribs and the scratches are clearly defensive*, the police just class it as a mutual fight. This happens all the time.

*The irony is, that if she was murdered, they would be classed as defensive scratches on the coroner's report, DNA taken from her fingernails, and used as evidence that he murdered her. But because she didn't die, she's as bad as he is. Make it make sense.

I would argue that 13 year olds engaging in a misogynist incel culture because they’ve been brainwashed online, are vulnerable.

The work that would need to be done to prevent that from happening involves recognising they are vulnerable and easily targeted, and finding ways to prevent that from happening.

Teenage boys aren’t just intrinsically sexist, or born the enemy, they learn it and are targeted with it. They’re the victims of that culture too - these are children we’re talking about.

I’m not even going to bother getting back into the conversation about women also not attacking people online, or physically, because evidently you don’t want to hear it.

Kendodd · 24/03/2025 07:36

What do you want girls to do/change OP?
Be nicer to boys?
What does that look like?

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 24/03/2025 07:45

@FeministUnderTheCatriarchy I couldn't agree more.

I have a son so I've made it my business to look at what is going on online. Therefore I'm inundated with incel content, Andrew Tate etc. it's terrifying.

There are a significant number of men who are pushing to remove rights from women. I saw a thread last night which was pushing for women to lose the vote in America.
All because the data suggested that it is educated women who are most likely to oppose MAGA.
There were thousands upon thousands of men commenting that women are too emotional and stupid to be trusted. That single, childless women shouldn't have a vote and that married women could have half a vote if her husband agreed.

I've seen similar threads that focus on women being allowed to drive, get an education, access contraception without permission from their husband.

ThatsCute · 24/03/2025 08:21

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 24/03/2025 07:45

@FeministUnderTheCatriarchy I couldn't agree more.

I have a son so I've made it my business to look at what is going on online. Therefore I'm inundated with incel content, Andrew Tate etc. it's terrifying.

There are a significant number of men who are pushing to remove rights from women. I saw a thread last night which was pushing for women to lose the vote in America.
All because the data suggested that it is educated women who are most likely to oppose MAGA.
There were thousands upon thousands of men commenting that women are too emotional and stupid to be trusted. That single, childless women shouldn't have a vote and that married women could have half a vote if her husband agreed.

I've seen similar threads that focus on women being allowed to drive, get an education, access contraception without permission from their husband.

Even US VP JD Vance has said similar—those with children should get extra votes. It’s scary times, and Trump ignoring a court order last week, without consequences, isn’t promising about how far they’ll be allowed to go…

NoviceVillager · 24/03/2025 08:39

@FeministUnderTheCatriarchy- fantastic post, I agree wholeheartedly 👏

SerenityNowSerenityNow · 24/03/2025 08:54

Even US VP JD Vance has said similar—those with children should get extra votes. It’s scary times, and Trump ignoring a court order last week, without consequences, isn’t promising about how far they’ll be allowed to go…

Indeed. You're not telling me that MAGA aren't keeping a close eye on which demographic negatively affects their approval ratings and thinking of ways to limit their influence. Currently that's women who've been to university... and those women are at the top of the incel culture hate list too.

Miaowzabella · 24/03/2025 09:22

AthenaWhite · 23/03/2025 11:23

Katie wasn't bullying Jamie, he was one of many who were bullying her.

Katie said No.

Katie called Jamie an incel. Jamie was an incel .

I honestly can't believe anyone needs this pointing out.

We don't learn very much about Katie during the series, but she is a young teenager who has been coerced into sharing topless images of herself. It's not unreasonable to deduce that she was expressing frustration at having to deal with boys and their sexual demands when she should be focusing on school work, friends and hobbies.

booksunderthebed · 24/03/2025 11:57

Twinstudy · 23/03/2025 22:16

She was being very nasty to him? She called him out when he thought she should go out with him because she was vulnerable. She said no. That's about it.

Jesus we really are in trouble when this is the take on a largely female dominated forum

so my recollection is that she sent him messages insinuating he was an incel.

Am I wrong?

MissyB1 · 24/03/2025 12:11

booksunderthebed · 24/03/2025 11:57

so my recollection is that she sent him messages insinuating he was an incel.

Am I wrong?

You are right, I think the particular emojis meant that Jamie would be a virgin all his life as no woman would ever want him. That's what the detective's ds said.

booksunderthebed · 24/03/2025 16:14

MissyB1 · 24/03/2025 12:11

You are right, I think the particular emojis meant that Jamie would be a virgin all his life as no woman would ever want him. That's what the detective's ds said.

That is horrible behaviour.

I think the other message from this movie is the nasty things that can happen on social media.

Maybe these parents have the right idea.

Parents of soon-to-be first year students in secondary schools in Dublin, Cork and Galway hope they can hold out against their children’s smartphone requests

Taking back control: The parents saying no to smartphones for their kids

In the News podcast

https://www.irishtimes.com/podcasts/in-the-news/taking-back-control-the-parents-saying-no-to-smartphones-for-their-kids/#:~:text=How%20parents%20are%20co%2Dordinating%20to%20withstand%20smartphone%20pester%20power&text=Groups%20of%20Irish%20parents%20dotted,giving%20their%20preteen%20a%20smartphone.

Thoughtfulyogi · 24/03/2025 16:25

A lot of ideas presented here are valid concepts of concern.” Adolescence” has accomplished it’s goal of creating a discussion among its viewers. Bravo! Mission accomplished.
I keep thinking about the toxic nature of the social media and all the negative aspects of the internet and the unfettered access many parents allow to their children. I came from a generation that didn’t grow up with smartphones. Teen mental illness, self harming and teen suicide, abusive sex practices were not in our vocabulary before the advent of the smartphone. “Adolescence”was to me a call to parents to be more active and interested in their children’s upbringing rather than handing them a device connected to all the dangers of the world and leaving them to it.

WhenYouSayNothingAtAll · 24/03/2025 18:35

I find it interesting OP hasn’t come back despite being eager to “discuss” and “learn”.

MellersSmellers · 24/03/2025 21:28

Breakitdownplease · 23/03/2025 09:00

We need to teach our kids to treat everyone respectfully, boys and girls.
Online bullying is a huge problem. The reality is that in real like Katie's bullying would be more likely to lead to suicide rather than murder. 13 year old boys murdering 13 year old girls is extremely rare. Teen suicide is not unfortunately.

Absolutely
You're right to make the point OP.

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