DD13 is unparentable!

[Xmasxrackers]

Please help! Im honestly at my wits end!!!!

My DD is just unparentable! She doesn’t care about anything, she is just vile to me and her brothers (3 and 8).

She started high school in September after coming from a small primary school and is only just making some proper friendships, and mum died 2 years ago which they were really close so I can only assume these things have contributed (her school have given her counselling and bereavement therapy).

Shes dirty and doesn’t care about her personal hygiene, she steals from me and her dad, if she misbehaves she does not care about being punished and basically does what she wants. If there’s only me and the boys in the house she spends the whole time screaming and shouting, throwing things, calling me vile names etc. if I say no to her. I have a DH who she wouldn’t say boo to a goose to, and she has her dad who doesn’t believe me at all. I have suspected ADHD and she is in the process of being referred. I’m at a loss. I can’t parent her effectively because she doesn’t listen or care about anything boundaries I put in place. I have tried the nicey nicey approach and took all her chores off her in case she was just stressed but mostly because she wasn’t doing them anyway. This behaviour has been there since before my mum was even poorly but it has escalated to a point where I just can’t. Anyone out there in the same position who can advise? Her dad will not entertain having her any more so I can have a break

So the behaviour started half way between you having another child and becoming pregnant with the next, I wonder whether she’s been feeling like she’s increasingly fading into the background over the last few years. I have a three year old and they take heaps of your attention as it is as (can’t be left alone, can’t sort themselves in the morning, etc) so trying to manage them alongside a young girl adjusting to high school sounds tough - and you’ve got an 8 year old on top!

I don’t have a solution I’m afraid as I’m sure you’re trying to maximise your bandwidth for each child as much as possible, but I can definitely see why she might be acting out - especially with the added context of being the half sibling out of the three.

Would she do anything like going for a walk with you or maybe a run? My daughter had a bad time in her teens and I bought a treadmill and she would go on it every night for an hour and that seem to calm her down and help her moods. I really feel for you, it can be so difficult with a teenager.

There is also a Facebook group OP, called Parents of Autistic Girls UK.

Don’t worry about not having a diagnosis yet (and there is huge crossover with ADHD and autism) as using autism/ADHD friendly parenting strategies will not harm your DD, they can only benefit a distressed child.

You need support too, particularly as you are likely to be neurodivergent and might find it harder to cope with the noise and dysregulation your DD displays. Practical advice will also be really helpful - you have already had some good advice here re: personal hygiene support.

I also read your posts and thought it could be possibly be SA. You have said her behaviour changed when she was around 8 so it could possibly be something that happened when she was younger. Please look at who was in her life then. You say there is no possibility of it being your DH as you WFH but you also say she has been left alone with him many times in the past.
You have said that your DH has been in your daughters life all her life and has brought her up as her own yet she doesn't say boo to a goose to him? This doesn't sound like a safe parent chid relationship, it sounds like she is afraid of him.
Issues you have listed as contributing to her behaviour such as starting secondary school and her grandmother's death are all fairly recent but it sounds like something has been troubling and upsetting your daughter for years.

Another thought, the lack of personal hygiene can stem from poor mental health. Feelings of low self worth and lack of energy can make self care a very low priority for teens especially.
Echoing the advice to read up as much as you can on parenting ND teens. Also look at burnout and see if that rings true at all. Punishment can just reaffirm the feelings of shame that they have already so it requires a different approach. Good luck.

You have some great advice here, I have a neuro diverse 11 year old son and I have to parent him in a completely different way to what people see as normal. The person who says you are here safe space is spot on. She's lost her grandma and now dad wants to take her away from you and she sounds terrified. You and ex need to talk about this and soon. Also the teenage years are much harder for neuro diverse young people in my experience. My child has PDA pathological demand avoidance, but can mask it if he doesn't feel safe. Hope you can work out a plan.

I was the same at that age and have ADHD so I think you're definitely on the right track. With ADHD comes many other comorbidities so keep on pushing and researching and I think you will crack it. I'm sorry that you have no support with this, it sounds incredibly hard.

I think if this started at 8 there's been maybe some kind of abuse and she's in deep deep distress. I'm no expert though. But it does sound like there was a major trigger as 8 year old girls aren't likely to change overnight and start stealing etc without a major trigger. Or as other posters said the current situation with your ex and so on. She just sounds very distressed and if there's ADHD to add to the mix plus puberty hormones it's all gone into overdrive.

I don't know how to deal with it, but you have my deepest sympathy as it sounds like a very hard situation.

Comorbidities?

It's more a generalised observation that just so happened to be on this post as every single post of a naughty brat of a child it's always "oh they must be ND"

comprehension fail

Does your daughter's Dad have more children? Or is your daughter his only child? You mentioned that your daughter's Dad is moving to Cyprus, has he discussed this move with you? He's asked your daughter to go to Cyprus with him, yet by your post it seemed that he hadn't told you he was moving, and you only know through your daughter. She is naturally torn. Probably wondering where the hell, she's going to fit in, in his life! She loves her Dad. At the moment she sees him, but that's not going to happen when he moves. It will be Facetime or something similar. She's lost her grandmother within the last couple of years, who she was close too. Just both of those things is a lot for a child to process, that's without any ND issues.

Some girls start puberty around age 8 so the personality change could be hormonal.
My DD has ADHD (diagnosed) and is dyslexic. I probably have ADHD too although not diagnosed, I recognise many of her traits in myself!
Things I do to limit meltdowns -
Eveything for school is in subject folders in a Trofast drawer set.
I check her school bag every morning.
We have a routine after school, she has at least an hour to decompress before homework.
I have face packs, hair masks, silk sleep bonnet (hair management is an issue) and encourage a shower/bath as pamper time.
I tell her if she starts to smell!
We bake together or cook together at least once a week, she talks to me about anything and everything when we do this.
I let her ‘fail’ sometimes with low consequence things. If she doesn’t bring her laundry down then she will have to rewear a shirt for school.
I praise her for all the positive things she does and reward her with small treats.
It’s not easy but she is now nearly 14 and is coping really well in school and is getting better at home!

Oh and I never expect to watch TV without having to stop the programme seventy million times so she can comment on something and then she leaves halfway through as she can’t cope without bouncing around for a bit! She always has a craft project on the go, diamond painting, paint by numbers, cross stitch, model building, Lego. She has to be either doing something or decompressing in her room like a cave troll!!

I think one of the reasons ND gets suggested on threads here is because NT approaches to challenging behaviours (typically characterising the dc as the problem (eg calling them brats), shaming, heavy handed discipline) cause more problems when dealing with neurodivergence.

Being alert to the possibility that an undiagnosed dc may need support, and that their challenging behaviour is a manifestation of intense stress might help avoid years of heartache and damage. It’s not a free pass - but it may give a parent access to a different mindset and skill set.

Lots and lots of people who are ND are perfectly lovely and well behaved. But that is often due to being fortunate in their environment, or having good self awareness so they can recognise stressors and reduce them before becoming dysregulated, or being able to articulate their needs and self advocate in ways that NTs find acceptable. It can very much depend on where the deficits lie for each individual.

The principle that the dc giving you a hard time is actually having a hard time, is a really useful starting point.

Lots of parents with suspected ND reach out to others online as they don't know anyone in RL they can talk to.

I'm actually in the minority due to mine and DPs jobs plus the people we've seem to attract.

I would be wary of jumping to ND (as MN tends to do) in this case, and I do have an ND DD. It sounds much closer to a cry for help and I think the whole low-demand approach being suggested could actually backfire.

Is it possible that your mum's death changed you/affected you in her eyes, in a way that scared or unsettled her. I can see that if a parent became a bit detached, flat and sad, a child might react with behaviours to get a reaction or emotion out of them - which is what a lot of this sounds like. She actually wants to argue with her, it shows you are still in there and still care, at least more than writing her off as unparentable does. Grief does weird things to us and teens don't have the experience to contextualise it.

My DS is younger but became incredibly clingy to me when I lost a parent recently. DH was sure he must be being bullied, but it was just him taking my grief personally. I think the solution is to focus on reinforcing your attachment to her, sharing things and honesty about your feelings.

It sounds so hard all round, good luck.

@Xmasxrackers Your DD definitely sounds ND from your description. Mine are and much is familiar. All mine hated showering because of the feel of the water, that’s got a lot better as they’ve got older but don’t forget, many teens are skanky regardless. The anger, and violence may well be emotional disregulation and it’s quite possible that she’s actually desperately unhappy, doesn’t understand why she feels the way she does and can’t regulate it so hates herself or feels she’s mad. You are her safe person, she knows you will love her whatever she says or does and doesn’t feel that way about anyone else which is why you see this behaviour. Add in the possibility of PDA, autistic traits and teenage hormones and it’s a volatile mix.
They do come out the other side but diagnosis is the first step because then they can understand why they are the way they are and stop hating being them.
Teenage years can be tough all round but ND adds an extra twist for sure.

Couldn't just read and run but this is similar to my daughter. We are waiting for her to be diagnosed too but have taken it on ourselves to try to get to the bottom of what's happening. Please look into PDA as since we have been reading up on this and have taken aspects of low demand parenting (which is really hard at first to balance what you need with what they can manage) we have seen a huge improvement in all aspects and sometimes I can see my little girl again. We still have a long way to go and we still need professional help but we are going what we can to help her and our other children as best as we can.

I’m really struggling with my daughter (14)
she has a lovely house with me and her brother (12)
lots of clothes
phone
friends
does sport
I literally do anything for her and support her as much as I can.
we have recently found out that she had glandular fever and suffers with migraines. Now has medication. I have done what all parents would do and supported her non stop through all of it.

its not good enough for her. She feels she is entitled to anything she asks for, be it music apps, clothes, money, friends coming over or being taken out as and when she demands.
her outbursts are vile she tells me I’m horrid I don’t care about her and judges my life style.
she does nothing but lie in her bed on her phone to friends and if I don’t drop anything as soon as she demands she goes Balistic.
unfortunately he has got so ridiculous that we can’t even talk anymore without it being explosive. I find it hard to keep my call when I try to give her the best life and every opportunity she throws it back in my face.

i wonder does anyone else feel like this? I’m going mad and try so hard at times to remain calm but equally I shouldn’t have to tolerate this because of her being 14 and having hormones. She surely still needs to know the basic values of thinking of others and not being self centered 100% of the time.

Same here. Although my daughter has a diagnosis of ADHD/ possible autism. It's the treading on eggshells that I hate. I'm dreading tomorrow morning already as she can barely get out of bed at the moment due to friend issues at school

Taker the phone away from her for periods during the day/night.

Get her doing something away from the phone.

Half of All People with ADHD / ADD Also Have Another Condition

Doctors once considered ADHD a standalone disorder. They were wrong. We now know that at least half of people with ADHD also suffer from one or more additional condition, referred to as a comorbidity. Most commonly, ADHD comorbidities include:

• Depression
• Anxiety
• Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)
• Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD)
• Learning disabilities
• Language disabilities
• Fine and gross motor difficulties
• Executive function difficulties
• Tic disorders
• Or another psychological or neurological problem

In some cases, these problems are “secondary” to ADHD — that is, they are triggered by the frustration of coping with symptoms of ADHD.
For example, a boy’s chronic lack of focus may trigger anxiety in school. Years of disapproval and negative feedback from family members may likewise cause a woman with undiagnosed ADHD to become depressed. Most of the time, secondary problems fade once the ADHD symptoms are brought under control.
When secondary problems don’t resolve with effective ADHD treatment, they are likely symptoms of a “comorbid” condition.

I've noticed that behaviour that could fall into something called conduct disorder seems to overlap with other condition such as ADHD. Conduct disorder however being demonstrative of a personality type prior to age 18.

I definitely don't feel that certain difficult behaviour is just an autism trait. Maybe it's a combination of all sorts. Sometimes just being ND means you'll develop a personality type that's much more oppositional.

There's also the PDA factor. There are Autistic kids who have a PDA proficiency and they're different. The need for autonomy and control absolutely drives every single thing and is so difficult to parent. It can look like something it might not be potentially. ( A personality disorder for example).

And then you've got the teenager acting out element so it all goes into the complex mix.

So just want to stress I'm definitely not attributing every problematic behaviour to being ND. That just times things by 10 if you have the perfect mix of genetic risk and environment factors.

This was very powerful. Made me cry

Agree with that. My teen has a phone. I perceive this to be the most dangerous thing they could possess. They must be removed at a set time every day. You have to sift through every single thing they have and do on it.

When I say dangerous - I don't mean just for them and what it does to them. I mean what messages they receive, the beliefs they then develop and how it influences what and who they become. If they're ND, the risk of influence is huge and bloody dangerous imo.