Caught between my daughter and her step mum (my wife)

[80sDad]

Morning all,

I’m hoping that someone can help me with some advice here, as I feel I’m caught between making a decision to leave my wife out of loyalty to my daughter.

A brief overview of our home situation - I have two daughters, a 20yr old who’s currently travelling and a 16yr old, who stays with us half the time. I split with the kids mum 8 years ago and have since remarried to my wife who I met 6 years ago.

My wife admittedly (to me) says she does struggle with my daughter and feels awkward around her which more often than not is very obvious. She rarely makes an effort to go out of her way to engage with my daughter unless we are all together and a lot of the time, even then it’s bare minimum. My ex wife said to me last year that my daughter had said to her that she (my wife) feels like she doesn’t like her. When I brought this up to my wife, she felt bad and made an effort that week, and my daughter was definitely more engaging with both of us to the point she spent most of the week and weekend with us rather than be in her room like she usually does. That didn’t last long.

We’ve just had another weekend of the same level of uncomfort where I feel I am the person in the middle when we sit for dinner. My wife doesn’t really speak to her and if my daughter talks, she talks to me mostly. So I feel caught in trying to make conversation to include the two of them.

What upsets me is that my wife can come across quite mean towards her - not directly but indirectly to me. She will make digs about her doing things like constantly leaving her cup in the kitchen, taking a lunchbox to school that isn’t hers, using stuff of her sisters when she isn’t here etc. Real petty stuff that teenagers do but it’s wearing my down. To the point my wife goes in moods and it creates arguments and atmosphere between the two of us over little things.

My daughter is a good kid, but a typical teenager that comes with attitude. She’s never been involved with parenting her since we’ve been together, and I’ve been okay with that as my daughter was 10 when we got together and has her own mum for parenting (ie my wife isn’t a replacement mum for my daughters).

It’s constantly causing arguments between my wife and I because I feel caught between my loyalty for my daughter and keeping my wife happy. Deep down, I know my wife would be happier if it was just the two of us (my wife and I), and it really upsets me.

Last night was another argument after my daughter went to bed. I’d brought it up that all weekend and at dinner, my wife made no effort with her yet again to engage. Only making digs at me because I’d emptied the dishwasher (my daughter’s job but she was studying so I did it) and then not conversing with her at dinner. When I brought it up she just gets defensive and says that all my daughter does is speak to me. I can’t blame her for that as I’d be the same if I thought someone didn’t like me! I keep saying to my wife that she’s the adult to which she agrees but it’s always short lived and we always go back to the same place.

I really don’t know what to do, and makes me sad to the point when I feel like this, I feel like I should move out and take my daughter with me to make a point. Which, I know, would be a nuclear response and would probably make it all worse.

She’s completely different if we are in company with other people - but never when she’s either with her alone or just the three of us.

Any advice from someone who’s been through the same? It’s something that can’t be discussed with my daughter as it would break her heart and at the same time, the three of us talking it out just isn’t an option.

Omg. This sounds just like what I went through. But me at the time, being the teenage daughter.
My parents divorced when I was just about to turn 16. My dad shortly after got with a woman that he eventually married. But as soon as they got together, at first I was happy for him. I didn't have any hard feelings towards the idea of my dad being with someone else. I was actually excited to get to know this woman and hoped we would get along great. I had this thought that she would be super cool and I would develop some kind of close bond with this woman that is involved in my dad's life. The first few times I met her, I instantly felt something was off and all the excitement and hopes I had for this future bond I hoped to create, was almost instantly taken away. It was this completely awkward feeling around her. Almost like an invisible wall that made it incredibly hard to be able to connect with her or even just allow the opportunity to naturally vibe well. It is very difficult to explain this akwardness or what it felt like to be exact but I will say it was a strong type of feeling and noticeable. I also felt like everything was forced with her like just how she tried to portray herself and as if it was just an act. I just knew that whatever side of her I seen, was a side that masked her actual personality. She was never intentionally mean or rude towards me directly eaither. But whenever it was her and my dad alone and if she had a problem with something, she would tell him about it and then he would have to be the one to mention something to me as if it were coming from his own thoughts. To avoid it being known that it came from her. But I know my dad and I knew each time she had complained to him about things. Little things too. It really bummed me out. My dad eventually ended up moving in with her in another state and I only visited a couple of times. So from age 16 to now I am 30. I visited them maybe 3 times and stayed for like a week each time. It was always the same. A fake portrayed personality. She quickly became in control of everything every choice or decision of my dad's was solely based off of what she wanted. It was the worst experience that could have happened to the relationship between my dad and I. Before he got with her, my dad and I were SOOOO close! In fact my mom and I bumped heads my whole childhood and my dad would always make us all sit down and mediate between me and my mother until whatever situation/argument was fixed. He was the one I could confide in and talk to about certian things that I couldn't talk about with my mom. We had a bond that was really special to me. It meant a lot. But once he got with this woman, it completely ripped apart our relationship. We would go years without talking more then once or twice through a text message. I felt completely abandoned by him and a ton of resentment started to build up towards him over time. The disappointment I felt and still feel to this day of how he just left and didn't even do his part in staying in my life like a father should have is just so crushing to me. It has negatively affected me in more ways then I'd like to admit to be completely honest. What I felt and will always feel is the fact how disappointing its been that he didn't stand his ground as a father or even kept who he was as an independent person like his own thoughts, choices, all of that. He just totally let her take control of everything especially over him. I hope by hearing a little bit of my experience, you can see things from my point of view as a 16yr old to now a 30yr old and I hope it helps you with the choices you make moving forward in your situation.

If you want constructive answers you'd be better off posting on the step-parenting board or even getting this thread moved there by reporting it to MN. When you say your wife doesn't parent your kids, is that entirely her own decision or something that also/primarily came from you and your ex? As pp have pointed out, it's quite likely your wife is the one dealing with the repercussions of DD's behaviour. Not being permitted to pull DD up on it will of course make her want to vent to you, and it seems quite mean to begrudge her that.
But seriously, try talking to some actual stepmother before blowing up your family.

What do you expect from your wife? On the one hand your daughter was around ALL weekend. It would drive me round the &@£! And back again if my 17-year old was with me all weekend. So set some boundaries in what is expected - dinner times together for example. And talk to your wife instead of being hyper critical of her. She hasn’t been rude to your daughter, she’s awkward, you and your daughter have a strong bond she doesn’t want to get in the way? Doesn’t feel included?

My questions regarding are you off out and leaving your wife to babysit, and did you move into her house remain unanswered.
That's fine, your perogative, but there is one hell of a difference between leaving your daughter with your wife who is not expected to parent, just suck up 'teenagerieness', and you actually using the contact time to spend with your daughter.
There is also the case of moving into the wife's house, out numbering her, and leaving her a second class citizen in her own home, where again she must suck it up, and not parent.
Would either of these apply?

If the coldness and unpleasantness is just one sided then I think your wife needs to step up and just be nicer.

However, if it goes both ways and your DD is equally as cold to your DW then you just need to treat is ad 2 adults that just don’t get on well. It happens and that in itself is not a reason to end an otherwise happy relationship.

I would though outline that it is completely unacceptable to make digs. I couldn’t live with someone who did that to my child.

My DM strongly dislikes my DH but I’ve just made my peace with it. I can’t force the relationship and sure it limits nice family occasions but cest la vie.

A view from “the other side” …

Met DH when I was 23, he was 33, divorced 3 years with a DD 10 and DS 8. I am an only child, and had zero experience with children. It’s quite hard to build a relationship in the circumstances around weekend access both from mine and their sides. We got married and had our own house 3 - 4 years in and encountered some of the issues described in the OPs post around teenage issues, with DSD in particular (not DSS so much). Sh was quite hostile to me and I literally had no idea how to deal with it, I tried engaging in conversation, school, clothes, tv etc but was quite hard work. It’s quite hard to describe actually.

I think some of it was due to our age gap (13 years) I don’t think she took me seriously, and some ( not all ) kids will always be hoping for a reconciliation between their parents.

Being in a step family is not like a Disney film for any parties. This is what I used to think when things were bad - I am the bigger person (literally!) so it’s up to me to lead making effort.

We are over 30 years in and we have 2 DC as well, we are all close now. People often comment on this and I think well, it didn’t just happen it was worked at.

You would go crazy if you spent a weekend with your child and impose rules about how much time they are allowed to spend with you? This dad doesn't have his daughter every weekend and if they want to spend the time they get together with each other why would that be wrong? The SM can do her own thing of course but I would hate to go and live in a house every other weekend where they tell me I have to leave them alone other than for dinner time. I don't know if I have misunderstood what you meant, but that sounds very hostile and unwelcoming.

Your poor daughter, from the age of ten spending time in a house with atmosphere. Probably treading on eggshells.

It's an awful feeling, not being welcomed by the woman her dad chose.

You know fathers set examples to their daughters about how they can be expected to be treated in relationships? What will she learn from this do you think? .

You should never have married this woman. She should never have married you. It was appallingly selfish of you both to do so, given you both knew then that she had no desire to be a stepmum and was going to make no effort with your daughter in her own home 50% of the time.

How horrible for your poor daughter to have had to live for so long with someone who doesn't want her there.

Yes, you should absolutely leave, put your daughter first for the first time in 6 years.

It does make sense, but you are overlooking the fact that your wife's attitude is clearly rolling off her in waves when she's around your daughter. As evidenced by the fact that when your wife makes an effort, your daughter spends more time with you both. When your wife reverts to her usual self, your daughter spends her time in her room.

Are you surprised that your daughter tries to avoid your wife? Would you make a habit of trying to talk to someone who clearly doesn't like you, resents your presence, and makes it obvious that they wish you didn't exist?

Why on earth would you marry someone that dislikes your children? You are allowing your wife to push your daughter out. If you let it carry on then your daughter will keep you at arms length when she becomes an adult and you'll have nobody to blame but yourself.

Imagine that your Ex had married a man who disliked your daughters and made it silently obvious that he didn't want them around. How would you feel about that?

Easy with hindsight, but this should have all been nipped in the bud a long time ago.
Your first loyalty should be to your DD. I say this as both a SM and I have a SM.
My Dad chose to keep the peace at home and let his wife freeze me out. This and many other reasons are why my Dad and I have very little contact. I have seen him once in 10 years and we swap occasional texts.
I also have SC. Can't say it's always been easy but it's not really that hard to find enough kindness to be warm towards children in their own home.
I guess you have a few choices ahead. You can't suddenly fix years of this behaviour but I think you need to talk to your wife about her negative attitude and the impact it's having on you.
Plus what you can do to make your home more welcoming for your DD before she leaves home for good. Which isn't far off.

From a 16 year old girls point of view here, they will only see one thing.

That one thing is that their dad, their own dad, the first male in their life, has chosen another female over them.

Your dd has obviously learned to people please, she has been putting you first.

Start saving up for her therapy.

Jesus, you’re poor son. Rejected as second class by a man since he was thirteen. The only interloper is your awful, awful husband.

I lived with a step parent who made it very clear that evidence of my existence bothered him. I was expected to turn radios back to his preferred station after listening so that he was never accidentally confronted with my taste in music and I would be cummoned back into a room to return the blinds to his preferred position if I had moved them etc.

It doesn't make for a great childhood, tbh, and I suspect that a lot of the insecurities I have as an adult stem from this treatment, and the fact that mother chose that for me by entering into and continuing the relationship.

What sort of relationship does your wife have with your older daughter?

I think you need to think very carefully about the relationship you want with your daughter in 10, 20 30 years time. When she's settled in her own family, with children of her own perhaps.

My dad has a 'new wife' he's been with since I was late teens. It was clear she didn't want me around as a teenager. I was never welcome in their house (we lived with my mum). She wants access to his grandkids (because her own 2 kids have abandoned her and moved away now their kids are older) my kids (early teens) think shes overbearing and weird, and NOT their grandma. They come as a package so he doesnt seem much of them.
Now he is in a position of needing some care/support and help with her. Guess who is staying very firmly away... My dh does not understand this as I bent over backwards for his mother in her last years, and will do the same for mine... but he didn't experience my childhood.

Do you realise how this will impact your relationship with grandchildren from your son if you let this go on?

You aren’t in the middle. You out yourself there.

Your wife clearly doesn’t like your dd. She behaves in a way that shows (to you and your dd) that she doesn’t like her. She is actively making your daughter feel uncomfortable.

I would guess in the hope your daughter stops coming over. If my dp treated my kids the way your wife is treating your daughter, he would be gone. I wouldn’t be in the middle because I wouldn’t allow myself to be in the middle.

If you allow this to continue you will damage your relationship with your dd.

You're not in the middle at all. Your job is to protect your child and it seems clear your wife doesn't like your child. Personally I wouldn't be able to tolerate that.

You are running the risk of losing your daughter.

I still don't talk to my dad 12 years later because he allowed his new wife to make me feel an outsider to my own dad. You daughter will remember this.

Your wife is an idiot. Put your daughter first.

In a nice way, people are telling you basically the same thing but I think it's hard for you to take in. Put your child first, wake up to what's going on - it isn't going to get better. She doesn't want your daughter invading her life with you.
There's an atmosphere when it's the 3 of you. There's your boom moment there.

From my experience as a young person who had this happen - my sis and I were subject to repeat silent phonecalls when we answered the landline back in the day, and the phone put down on us because our future S M obviously thought it was our mum. Nice for school age children.....not unpleasant or worrying at all ....
Skip forward 5 years our parents split up, we were made homeless as young adults, our dad went with her (15 years younger than him) moved 200 miles away. When we first visited their nice little life together, we got told you'll take us as you find us - by her.
We also got told our family dog was now her dog, and don't make a fuss of the dog as SM won't like it. My brother got told don't drink in that pub, SM drinks in there with her friends.
As we got older we got told no you can't visit, SM is doing the garden. Next time we asked no you can't visit SM is getting her hair done. They got married in secret and us, his 3 children, were not invited! We were told after the fact, at a very awkward dinner with him only, and shown a few photos!!!!

He continually missed the point that we weren't bothered about seeing her, our relationship was with him!
Go on a summer holiday, same place by coincidence as them, at the same time - get told yes we can see you and your baby daughter - for a couple of hours, out of a 2 week holiday!!!
Skip forward 18 + years ....he is old and weak, elements of guilt coming through in conversations, meanwhile SM is resentful as his carer, and we.. don't.... visit....
Do I feel bad?
Not really, he made his choice, and his choice was a child free selfish life with her.
You are at the start of that road.

Your wife is completely in the wrong here and you shouldn't feel stuck in the middle, you should very firmly be on your daughters side.
Maybe your wife isn;t cut out to be a step mum, no judgement on that - I probably wouldn't either but she DID marry a man in the full knowledge that he had 2 children so she needs to either start being nicer to your DD or you need to leave her. If you don't your daughter will not want to spend time at your house and in the future when she looks back on why she doesn't have a great relationship with her Dad she will (rightly) resent both of you

Why would you let someone like this into your daughter’s life so closely? If this is how your wife feels, she shouldn’t be your wife.

I think you need to show your daughter some loyalty before you irreparably damage your relationship with her.

If you think you’ll be happier divorced from her then do that. I expect you’ll all be better off.

While I sympathise with your wife about teens being difficult to live with, my kids come first. In your shoes I’d be very concerned that once dd is 18 there will be pressure for her to move out from your wife. I have kids in a similar age group and moving out is expensive and uni halls aren’t 365 days a year contract. My oldest kids are early 20s and can’t move out because of cost.

My ex’s wife isn’t keen on our kids either. Out of my 3 kids 1 has gone no contact with him, another is very low contact but doesn’t go to his home and the other is decreasing contact rapidly because it’s super awkward in his house. His wife has been with him for 10+ years but my youngest and his wife only talk to ex so it’s very awkward when he goes to the loo or something. They’ve never expressed dislike to each other but all 3 kids have said that they are tolerated for the sake of the relationship with their dad. My youngest is well behaved but will do typical teen things like leave dirty cups lying around but his dad has never encouraged chores during his time with the kids so it’s understandable that he doesn’t do that there. In my house he automatically brings his cups and plates every other day which is acceptable lol.