Physical fight with teen boy

[Reallysoreandhurt]

I can’t believe I’m typing this.

He is 12, he has autism and is also medicated for adhd. His meds wear off after school and he punched his brother as they got in the car. He deliberately antagonised him, his brother shouted back and so he punched him, hard, so as I think he will bruise.

We got home and I said he was on a screen ban. He had a lock on his door and he went in and locked it. He knows he is not supposed to lock it unless he’s going out. I have a key but it was in the cupboard. I can control screens via the router so I did this and then he came downstairs. I gave him a couple of jobs to do and I went up and took his keys and carried on cooking dinner. I suspect he wanted to lock his room so he can get on some other device somehow, he’s very tech savvy.

I tried de-escalating, distracting, walking away, humour, anything. But I wasn’t prepared to just hand over his keys.

He started to cry saying he wanted his keys back and then started swearing. I said that that wasn’t going to get him anywhere and he grabbed a ladle and threw it.

I said I absolutely would not be handing his keys back, he could go back to his room and there would be no screens.

He stood in front of me swearing and shouting “give me my fucking keys woman, give them to me now you fucking stupid woman give me my keys.” I stayed calm and he carried on getting closer into my face and I said “if you carry on swearing into my face I shall slap you.” And he said “fuck you” and I slapped him on the cheek.

He went bezerk and punched me to the ground. I ended up on the kitchen floor with him standing over me. Im really really sore all down one side and on my arm, and very shaken. He’s gone to his room and I’ve stopped crying now.

I have no idea what to do. I shouldn’t have slapped him. In my entire life I’ve never ever been physically battered like this.

Im on my own with them, their dad is hopeless and lives an hour away.

Unless you have experience with ADHD and ASD, unless you have THAT skin in the game, please, leave it. Please.

"He went bezerk and punched me to the ground. I ended up on the kitchen floor with him standing over me. Im really really sore all down one side and on my arm, and very shaken."

"In my entire life I’ve never ever been physically battered like this."

Your own words, if someone else posted the above what would you say to them?
People are concerned & giving advice.
This is what he has done to you at 12, he is going to get a lot bigger.
You don't seem to be accepting of anyone else's input, so what are you going to do?

That is domestic abuse, I’m afraid. Adolescent to parent violence and abuse, APVA.

I agree with other posters, he hit you multiple times, kept hitting you after you were on the floor. That isn’t a retaliatory punch. And he isn’t sorry. This is going to escalate, every time you say no to him.

My son is not autistic but at 14 he was already 6’, now at 16 he is 6’2”.

He would lose his temper when he was about 15 and when he got really angry smashed some stuff in his room including ripping the door off his wardrobe. He also had a physical fight with his dad and one time lost it so bad it took 4 or us to hold him still and prevent him from running away (we couldn’t let him go as he was so totally distraught). We had some very serious family challenges before this, including me having cancer and then we had lockdown. I felt instinctively he was in serious emotional pain and although his dad wanted me to call the police or take him to the ER, I refused to and felt we would be reinforcing him the message he felt about himself which was he hated himself and his life (Of course I would have taken these steps if things escalated). His 18 year old sister was very good at staying calm (just like me) and we let him go in the bathroom and lock the door while we made sure he couldn’t get out of the window!

He eventually started crying in there and cried a long time.

We had talks after that. My husband and I made a big effort to have him do things with us and tell him how much we loved him, as we acknowledged we had let him spend too much time alone online during COVID.

I also sat him down and made sure he understood that as well as no violence, how scary it was as a 5’5” woman to have a boy as tall as him lose control, slam doors around me and yell at me. I explained that it was OK to be angry and he probably didn’t appreciate how frightening his anger reaction was for others and especially the females in the family. I told him he could be angry but not take it out on others.

I never hit him and I am almost sure it would have escalated if I did. He seemed to take what I said on board and he never behaved in that extreme way again (but I do think there was just a lot of lent up misery). If my own family, the girls are more likely to burst into tears while upset, while my son, such the age if three has always got angry when frightened or upset. My husband is not aggressive or violent at all.

BTW the person my son directed his anger at was his dad. He asked his dad why he was so emotionally closed off and that he thought he was on the spectrum! (His dad) DH was actually in tears while he had him in a bear hug to prevent him hurting himself or anyone else. I really think these young teen boys with growing bodies and high levels of testosterone really need some men in their lives and men are very good at helping putting in boundaries around teen boys.

At 16 he is now driving (we are in the USA), works out at the gym with his dad, is working part-time and has a lovely girlfriend. He still is lazy with school but he is getting through it with As and Bs. His is obviously a lot more independent and able to socialize how he wants now he is older and has his own transport. He has calmed right down and I haven’t seen any of the pain and rage that he displayed a couple of years ago (he is 17 in June).

I know these circumstances are completely different and I had the support of my husband and our daughters (18 & 20).

I guess I just want to say in my experience, boys can behave in ways as women and girls that is rarer for us to display and he needs very clear guidance of what is and is not acceptable. He said terrible things to you, but where is he getting that language from? I doubt he suddenly thought it up. He should NEVER have been violent but unfortunately by being violent yourself you crossed your own boundary.

I know this is very, very serious. I was definitely shocked and devastated and worried his behavior would never improve, but he has done a 180.

I think you definitely all need to calm all the way down and then maybe write down some bullet points to discuss with him. I know almost nothing about Autism but I get the impression nuance and vagueness will pass him by, confuse him or frustrate him. I think together you need to talk and set some very clear ground rules but also you need to explain to him WHY his behavior is wrong and the repercussions for him long term (in terms of losing friends and good family relationships). Does he have any activities other than being online? I do think being online too much during COVID definitely made things way worse for my son.

If possible get him in sports or something where he uses his body positively. He is still very young, going through puberty and needs active parenting. Is there ANYONE who can help, maybe other male friends or family who would be willing to take him to watch football or something? I think social isolation and too much screen time is a terrible combination for all our sons.

With or without Autism their lack of social skills and ability to understand and control their growing and changing bodies and emotions is just as painful and confusing as girls.

No he didn’t hit me when I was on the floor. He punched me 4 times one after the other. And it was retaliatory. I was there (obviously) and you weren’t.

I just posted but it looks like I very much underestimated how serious the violence was. I do think you need to do something to put a very clear boundary in and unfortunately that most likely means involving the police. He HAS to know this is wrong and unlawful. You want him to learn the harsh lessons NOW while young and he has to be very clear about not laying a hand on anyone.

I have older teen twins one of whom has ASD. My opinion would be that 12 is too old to be physically fighting, you are letting in a whole host of problems by allowing it and by minimising it. Being “well matched” is not the point.

I understand the need for a place that won’t be messed with but I think a large cupboard rather than a whole room would be more appropriate and less easily used in these situations. I would move towards that.

You should never ever have threatened to hit him or hit him and I think you know that but are attempting to deflect from what happened by calling it “a slap”. You do minimise all the violence scuffle, slap, well matched, tween behaviour….I don’t say that to shame you, but I think you need to think about what you are normalising. . I know it’s much much harder than most people reading will understand. I really feel for you.

The reason I asked if you dropped them too is that perhaps one in the front there and one on the way back would be better? I would give them a sweet drink in the car. It’s a trick for primary school but honestly works with everyone.

He's 12. You slapped him, if he mentions it at school, and the school are any good, then they'll doubtless be in contact with you anyway, as this is a safeguarding issue. They'll know your son better than randoms on here, and will probably give you the parenting advice you require.
Good luck.

Thank you for sharing that. It’s very helpful and yes I know exactly what you mean when you talk about instinctively knowing they are in emotional pain. He was devastated by our divorce, and the changes that brought. He’s going through a huge growth spurt and his relationship with his dad is odd because he is always worried about upsetting him so I get the motherload of it all. He’s very anxious and I couldn’t even get him into school last week, he was so upset.

Oh OP I can relate! It's infuriating when posters wade in with no experience of the particularly potent and challenging combination of ADHD and ASD.

I agree it's certainly a serious situation which needs addressing, but at this stage it's a one off, so proportionality and context (the context being neurodivergence, overload and meltdown) is necessary. I have a dd with ADHD & ASD and a ds with ADHD. At one stage when they were younger disagreements would escalate into violence between them. It did resolve - we talked it through regularly and consistently and considered how things can escalate and the implications - and eventually it sunk in. It's not all hunky dory now - dd in particular can be verbally aggressive and vicious when in a bad place, but at least there is no physical threat

And yes, yes to the emotional pain

Anxiety coming out as anger and meltdowns is very normal for autistic children and teenagers.

I'd suggest that in the short term you have a conversation with him about his anxiety and what he is anxious about, and ways that you and he can come up with to reduce anxiety.

You can then write it down in simple terms E.g.
When my tummy hurts and my head feels spinny this is anxiety.
I can feel better by:
Watching my favourite movie
Cuddling my dinosaur
Using my weighted blanket

(Substitute in there whatever comes out of your conversation).

Then make 26 million copies and stick them up everywhere. Check with him hourly - is he anxious - what could he do? This will start to embed this in his mind.

Longer term, you're looking to embed the nobody at all hits rule. So have a conversation about how much hitting hurts, and every time someone hits someone else they need to apologise. The apology may need to be delayed if one or more people are in meltdown/emotionally dysregulated, in which case separate them, send both off to do their anxiety things, and hours or days later depending organise a meeting for an apology.

I would ask for a meds review.
This does seem to be the age that issues like this start as puberty really kicks in along with best Ng aware that they are different and all the teenage emotions. I've stepped in the n computers going out of windows, banisters being ripped out doors punched etc. Is there any counselling that can be accessed through school or a local support group near you?
Unfortunately if he's like my nephew the fact you hit first could make it hard to argue against it being wrong....well you hit or you make mistakes so everything you do he doesn't agree with could be another mistake.....so think carefully about your discussions. A punch ball helped my nephew.....screen time was the worst thing my sister did as now he is up all night because his SW said it would be good for him to de-stress ....he's 29 and doesn't leave his room

When is his next annual review? It would definitely be worth asking for a social care assessment again. He is a child in need by definition of being a child with a disability and so is entitled to some form of assessment, be it an early help or child and family assessment. That may all be taken out of your hands anyway if he discloses to school that you hit him, but at least should result in an assessment.

Either you are trolling or you are just really, really mind numbingly thick
(Happy to be deleted for this) 👍

Did Social Services do an assessment? They have a way of telling parents that they can't do them because the child doesn't meet their criteria, but they're absolutely wrong to do so. They have an obligation to carry out a full assessment for any child in need, which includes any child with a disability including diagnoses of autism and ADHD. Yes, they may come up with the parenting classes idea, but you need to get it through to them that this is a situation where they are endangering themselves, each other and you, and that they need to do something useful, e.g. arrange respite care.

I know they’re both entitled to a section 17 assessment as they’re both CIN as a consequence of their disability. And that I’m entitled to a carer’s assessment in my own right. I have walked this road for a long time.

And it is something I have explored and I have yet to hear of a single provision that I think would help THIS child at the moment.

Fuck off.

Tbf, you didn't think he'd do it the first time.

1. meds review. Talk to the consultant about what happened and mention if this is out of character . It’s very common to need higher strength dose or different medication what with being taller/heavier then he was when initially prescribed.

2. I know it’s hard but don’t react. Keep calm fair boundaries delivered with warmth. Do explanations help or do they escalate the situation?

3. if things escalate and either he gets heightened or you are struggling, take yourself off for a walk. Literally walk away without comment. You will be role modelling a better way to let off steam, calm down and think things through. If it helps text him and explain you’ve taken yourself off to keep safe and calm the situation. Then set your phone on silent and ignore it for a hour or what ever.

4. apologise for slapping him. At the same time explain that if he hurts you again you will need to let the school and consultant know so they can tackle this behaviour. You may even call the police

5)if he has been playing misogynistic games which have influenced this behaviour best remove them. Explain why. Hopefully he will develop the maturity to separate fiction from reality and consistently treat females with respect. If his Dad was abusive (verbally or physically) to you, he will likely need better male role models.

5. explain in advance what will happen next time he punches his brother - so he knows the repercussions before acting out.

6. hide the keys.

Lastly best of luck to you. It can be incredibly challenging having an autistic child and taking care of yourself is particularly important.

it also might be an idea to sit him down and calmly/constructively talk through different things he could do when triggered, now he his maturing out of tweens into teenage years. Maybe he has some ideas too? If he wants physical impact could he punch his pillow? Go for a fast running sprint round the park, slam his football into the goals repeatedly. Screaming loudly could also be an option

I think there are lots of lessons that can be learned here, obviously that punishing him by taking away something he relies on to decompress, cope and is part of his routine after a long day at school is going to backfire spectacularly, especially when you escalate it because you're at the end of your tether and don't know what else to do.

I wonder if it would be better to seat one in the front and one in the back after school when his medication is wearing off so it's much more difficult to get physical - hopefully the meds can be altered, but in the short term at least. Or perhaps ask the one that was hit if he would prefer to sit separately. Do you have music on or kindles they can watch on the way to distract them on the journey? Also snacks, always snacks after a long day.

I wonder if you could discuss punishments with him at the weekend when he is at the best point in his meds, would money work? ie he gets a set amount a week (if he doesn't already) and if he does x y or z then he loses 20p/50p of it. This needs using sparingly though (like all punishments or they become ineffective), always take away from next weeks money, never money already given. Get him to agree (if possible) what things are not acceptable and that money could be deducted for. Always give a warning before deducting money. I used to use this with DS who has ASD but he was a bit younger so I don't know if it would work.

Tomorrow I would apologise to him for what you did and tell him very calmly that what he did was also unacceptable. I would not ask him for an apology as if he has PDA I'd imagine you'd be very unlikely to get it and it could just escalate again - knowing what he is capable of and what he isn't is really important I think. He will probably not be able to get past 'you hit him first' and will not see that he is also in the wrong. He also hit his brother because he shouted at him, he will not think his brother shouted because he antagonised him - I don't know if explaining very calmly this too him would help him understand? You might need to really explain very clearly why his brother found him antagonising - but he might not be able to see it from his point of view.

Have you heard of ADHD rebound? I wonder if that is what is going on for him at this time. Link here with more information and ways to hopefully improve things:
https://www.singlecare.com/blog/when-medication-wears-off-adhd-rebound/

I think with a child with ADHD and ASD it is vital that you try really hard to stay calm and consistent at all times because anything else is only going to make things 100 times worse. However that consistency needs to take into account his needs - and his needs sound extremely high. I think it could have been avoided if lots of things were in place to work with his needs - but that can make life feel as if it revolves around him. But then making life revolve around him - always thinking ahead about what he can cope with, what will help him cope, what is going to trigger him, what he's not going to be able to cope with, planning for every eventuality, keeping routine as much as possible, what helps to calm him, anything that you can say to bring him back down, lots of warnings before transitions etc can be pretty overwhelming - but if you can get as much of it in place as possible then it might just really help everything run smoothly - well at least until something unexpected happens!

Although this sounds horrific I think you can learn a lot from it and it doesn't mean he's a terrible person and beyond help and you need to hand him over to SS. There is so much you can probably do - but it requires a lot of hard work and mental effort that you might not really have available. If you can't get a handle on it though and the violence continues then I think at some point you might need to consider a residential school to keep you all safe. Good luck OP x

On threads like this, I notice that a lot of people only post to say you must think of your other child.
Other people say, you are to blame for hitting your violent son first.

As another poster said, there are a lot of women being abused physically and mentally by their children, especially by sons. The slap was wrong, but didn't deserve a beating with bruises.

Perhaps it is wiser to see things how they are (brutal violence) and make plans for your son to be housed away from you. Why should you not protect yourself like you would be advised to do in other instances of domestic violence? Don't suck it up as part of being a mother. It's all so fucked up - society that is.

I think it’s maybe time you stepped away from this thread, OP.
There’s lots of good advice, some you seem to appreciate and some less so.
Stay safe.