Can a 19 year take her 14 year old sister abroad?

[ZiggysTarbrush]

My incredibly anxious unstreetwise girls (who until now haven't been to the cashpoint by themselves or hopped on a local bus) have decided they are buying plane tickets and hotel rooms for New Year's Eve in Amsterdam.

Now while I applaud their ambitions I've tried explaining it's the travel equivalent of lying in bed for years then announcing they are signing up for a marathon in a few months and will need to get used to doing things by themselves without me chaperoning before anyone thinks it's wise for them to go to a big bad European city where they might get lost, hurt, preyed on by bad folks etc.

Apparently I'm a controlling bully for gently pointing this out.

Question if I do not give consent as her parent can I legally prevent my eldest 19 yr old DD from taking her 14 sister away on a plane/Eurostar?

Ffs.

But if everything was pre selected by you they had no need of a plan 😂
You just wound them up, placed them on a little track you'd designed yourself and let them go. No thought required from either of them.

"But if everything was pre selected by you they had no need of a plan 😂
You just wound them up, placed them on a little track you'd designed yourself and let them go. No thought required from either of them."

Except all they knew was that they had booked in to X hotel, and had Y theatre tickets at Z time. They didn't know it was three stops down the tube. So they had to look up which tube station was closest to the theatre, which tube to get on etc etc. They worked that out themselves. And indeed, nothing would have prevented them from booking in to hotel, going out for a meal around Oxford Street and then getting a different tube to the theatre, had they felt more confident to do so. I wasn't there, so they could have chosen to walk to the theatre or get a taxi or even a bus. I just made it so it could be done as safely as possible, and if they felt scared or unsure, I could guide them to xyz, if needed. Just because I knew the easiest way of getting around, it didn't mean that they didn't have to also work it out themselves!

Hello @seramum you are not going mad. I totally get what you did and sounds completely genius to me (another rural mum). You facilitated giving the impression of an actual London self-sufficiency with your teens but actually knew you had scoped the adventure in a way that was not going to be out of their comfort or capabilities.

I'm not sure why it's hard to get by others but I'm inspired by your genius and if my teens weren't busy shouting at me for being so nasty in suggesting they get their own key back from neighbours or hop on local bus/train to see friends instead of wait for a lift from me I'd be considering doing a similar exercise.

'Here's the tickets, here's the hotel booking I'll bung you xyZ station with some cash on your card and see you after you've had a fabulous independent weekend!'

Genuinely an independent weekend was had but with your knowledge making success straightforward for them.

I applaud you and agree it's the best way of introducing key city life skills to our juniors not raised in those environments.

Thanks @ZiggysTarbrush.

Hopefully, when yours have calmed down, a compromise could be met? Christmas present with UK city break with a view that if it all goes well this year, they can go abroad next year? Use the point a PP said about having to be 16 to go to Amsterdam without a parent / guardian?

As I said earlier, mine had wanted to go to Paris, so London was our compromise first trip away alone. Having done that, they have now realised how much all the extras cost, that when they tried to budget going abroad this year, they ended up deciding that it's cheaper to stay in the UK and actually they really enjoyed their break so are going to do the same again (different show obviously. But they really liked the hotel so have requested to stay in the same one again).

Next week, they're off to an event in Birmingham. For which, they've got to get a tram. That'll be another first, as they've never caught a tram before. To be honest, I've never caught a tram before, so don't know how to get tickets etc...

Hope you find a solution that works for your DC. Teenagers can be trying at the best of times!

But your 15-year-old wasn't there alone. She was with her sister, who was an ADULT. Not a child.

An 18-year-old adult should be able to do this stuff for themselves. They really should, regardless of where they grew up and how knowledgeable they are about camping, cows, tides, etc. The skills of getting around a new town or city are not niche skills - they are the basic building blocks of life wherever you are in the world. No one should reach adulthood without being able to do that, without parental help (additional needs excluded). Changing from one tube to another is not a complex thing. Yes, my kids have grown up doing it in London (as did I) but those skills are immediately transferable to other towns and cities all around the world.

And really, no one ever, ever needs to get a tube from Oxford St to the West End! It's a mile at most, of easy, flat walking with interesting stuff to look at on the way. You walk far more steps going up and down to the platforms for a journey of that length. Getting a tube for one stop to do that journey isn't good planning or good learning. It's a waste of money and time.

But the 'knowledge' she gave them was completely wrong. Perhaps if she'd just told them to use Google Maps and Citymapper they might have realised, for example, that you don't get on a tube to go from Oxford St to Leicester Square.

@BloodAndFire

"was completely wrong. Perhaps if she'd just told them to use Google Maps and Citymapper they might have realised, for example, that you don't get on a tube to go from Oxford St to Leicester Square."

You're assuming I know how to use such stuff! What is city mapper? In my almost 50 years, I've never used it, or needed to know it! I rarely go to London mind, but am a dab hand at mastering the cows I do encounter on a weekly basis!

Also, if you read my post again they weren't staying on Oxford Street. They stayed at a hotel that was at walking distance from Oxford Street. So they didn't get the tube from Oxford st to Leicester Square. They got the tube from their hotel to Leicester Square.

Any hotel that is in walking distance of Oxford St is also in walking distance of Leicester Square. They are very near each other. Oxford St is not very long.

I presume you wouldn't think twice about walking a mile in the countryside, so why would you think you need to get a tube that distance in London?

What I'm suggesting is that by micromanaging it in this way, they've not learned some skills that would be helpful in the future - like using appropriate apps to judge whether or not you should just walk rather than faffing around with public transport that will take longer.

I'm absolutely sure that you are better than me at managing cows! But I wouldn't attempt to give my children incredibly detailed advice about that, given that it's not something I really know anything about myself.

What i'm saying is I don't think your daughters benefited from your planning, because honestly it's a bit like the blind leading the blind. Just let them do it themselves and if they get it wrong, so be it. The consequences are unlikely to be catastrophic. I was out and about in London from age 11 onwards (my parents from about age 8 and my grandparents, god knows), and had all sorts of disasters (this was well before the time of mobile phones, apps, uber, etc.) but I am still here to tell the tale. Making mistakes - your OWN mistakes - is a part of growing up too.

@BloodAndFire if you grew up in London, it’s genuinely quite difficult to imagine life not in London. I imagine that @seramum ’s DDs weren’t utterly helpless but just slightly unsure - I grew up in a city, not London, and still made some very short and inefficient tube and bus journeys when I first started going about by myself. It’s pretty common!

But they have learned other skills, like how to navigate the tube! Why is that so strange a thing to want to learn to do?! It takes a while the first few times and it's quite nerve wracking if you've not been on it. Things that are totally obvious to you, like how to work out what direction the line is going, especially when there are multiple end points etc, are not obvious to someone who comes from a place where there is no public transport. Buying tickets, using ticket barriers, following signs where there might be multiple signs to the same end point but pointing lots of different ways, can be quite confusing for an anxious teen who has never done anything like that before. People rush around, and it looks complicated and confusing at first.

So why not learn on a simple journey? You're still learning some of the basics that might later make a more complicated journey easier. Once you've done it a couple of times, you aren't worried about the mechanics of tickets and barriers and reading the lines and stops and how to get on and off, and then you can learn other skills like working out where and how to change lines, or what other ways you could get to your destination.

And sometimes you do want to take a tube three stops. That can be a long enough walk depending on where you're going and what else you're doing that day, and what time you might have. Some people get very lost with a map and would end up leaving loads of extra time, or maybe they didn't know if it was a safe area or not, as just the whole idea of London can be intimidating for people who haven't grown up there.

There's nothing wrong with learning skills in a step by step way, even if you think they're pointless baby steps. Some of us need that to stop being overwhelmed by bigger steps, whether you think that's pathetic or not. There's time next trip to learn city mapper and whatever else the might need! Some people find making mistakes with transport and unfamiliar places quite terrifying. It's easier now with mobiles and google maps and online timetables and everything, but it can still be more intimidating to be in a new place that you might realise.

"What I'm suggesting is that by micromanaging it in this way, they've not learned some skills that would be helpful in the future - like using appropriate apps to judge whether or not you should just walk rather than faffing around with public transport that will take longer."

I'm sorry @BloodAndFire but what part of I did not tell them which route to use do you not understand? Sorry but I'm getting really frustrated at people's inability to read posts properly.

I booked a hotel that was close to a tube stop, that was on a direct line to the theatre and in walking distance to Oxford Street that was on a direct tube line, from the station. For their birthdays I gave them their tickets, dropped them off at the station and said have a great weekend. Their train tickets had zone 1 tube tickets included.

I knew the hotel was next to a tube and on the same tube line as the theatre. But my DC did not. They had to work out themselves how to get to Oxford Street. They could have walked if they decided to use Google Maps. They certainly had to use it to find the hotel from Oxford Street. They still had to look everything up themselves, work out where they were going and how to get there. I just made sure that for a first time in London alone, it was safe and secure.

You've grown up in London. You know how it works, from a young age you probably watched your parents catch the tube, seen how it's done. My children have had none of that. They've grown up in a village, where they've known almost all the adults they encounter on a daily basis because they live in our village. Go to the shop and it'll be xs mum serving you, walk down the street and you'll say hello to everyone, because you know everyone, and all the mums look out for you. Hell, at 13, my youngest didn't even know how to get off a bloody bus by herself.

So yeah, going to a city for the first time when you're not used to that at 15 and 18 is bloody scary, because if you get lost it's not x's dad to sort you out, it's a total stranger.

Rural life is very different (see the other thread running about all the Londoners who can't hack rural life) and what's every day and normal to you, isn't every day and normal to my DC. It's not a skill they've ever needed or had the chance to develop London isn't the centre of the universe, we generally have no need or desire to go there.

Your kids are probably streetwise, but mine are not. We live in a very low crime area, they've never seen a crime (unless you count speeding), none of their friends have ever been mugged or robbed, their norm is to say hello to every person they see walking down the street, whether they know them or not. I don't think you get how different life is outside London.

So even working out where to put the ticket, which train to catch, which platform to get the train from, or even just getting on the tube was a huge novelty and a huge step for them.

Ok @seramum I'm glad it was a positive experience for them.

(For future reference...there really is no need to get the tube between nearby stations in Central London. It is a tiny area, very well signposted, and incredibly tourist and family-friendly. And you will see interesting things if you walk.)

And no, without question I could not hack rural life! Everything about it terrifies me.

To the op... I think the idea of your equally unstreetwise children going to Amsterdam on NYE is an appalling one.

My DD's travelled together at 16&18. The eldest is autistic but wanted to visit a specific place, the younger took her, she's very streetwise. They grow up in a city though

@BloodAndFire do you have teens yourself?
Am 18 year old today and was 16 pre-pandemic with key development years, opportunities and activities missed. An eighth of a lifetime spent in lockdown is going to have an impact plus you don't see able to see that not all teens (including even brand new adult 18 year olds) are bullish brave explorers and many these days are socially anxious self-conscious citizens who spend most of their lives online not Out There being in the world as many of us parenting teens were in the 1980's and 1990s.

It's a brave new terrifying world these days in many ways. In other ways less than it was - when I travelled to London as a 13 year old no ability to phone home or access emergency funds if things went wrong.

Our job as parents is to know how teens, see their bright futures as a vision and hand hold them less and less until they are fledged and competent.

My son did a great job at flying off but still calls me daily about life stuff. His sisters need small amounts of exposure to situations they have no frame of reference to.

I can't see why all of this is so hard to grasp.

Also @BloodAndFire some people prefer to get the tube rather than walk a bit esp if have blisters, tired legs, heavy bags, want to get some tube experience, dislike map reading etc.

Everyone is different. Everyone is at liberty to do things the way they want to even if you think there's a better way.

I don't have teens, no, but my eldest is 12 and takes the tube and bus by herself very happily.

My 8-year-old could probably do it but obviously I wouldn't let him.

If you have blisters or heavy bags, you would be walking far more steps, and going up and down far more stairs, to take the tube for this journey, rather than walking at street level.

Of course everyone can do whatever they want. But seeking advice from people who have some idea what they're talking about is quite a useful life skill too. if I was going to walk from your village to the neighbouring one and wanted to know the best route, I'd ask the advice of someone who lived there and/or look it up on the internet, rather than just assuming I knew best.

Am 18 year old today and was 16 pre-pandemic with key development years, opportunities and activities missed. An eighth of a lifetime spent in lockdown is going to have an impact plus you don't see able to see that not all teens (including even brand new adult 18 year olds) are bullish brave explorers
To be fair, though, every current Year 7 in London has also lived through the lockdowns during their last years at primary. They still cross the city by tube daily, there's no actual choice for the majority of them.
Still managing life perfectly well, and I'd actually say those years of development were even more "key" at their age.

Many of them have been on the tube before, with family, and have just absorbed many of the things they need to know about it. It really can be a bit intimidating for someone who hasn't been.

If I have blisters or tired feet, I know that I would find a tube journey of a couple of stops preferable to walking through crowds on Oxford street!! And I'm a regular tube user who knows the distances and changes involved. Honestly it's personal preference in many cases. But regardless, if someone is trying to get a feel for using the tube, then a short journey is fine. Nobody has said it was the best way to get where they were going - it might have been, it might not have been. It doesn't take away from the fact that they learned useful skills about navigating the tube system. And they decided to do it, so even if you think it was a mistake, it was their mistake, and they survived it, so bonus to them there too.

There is nothing wrong with a little trip designed to help people with first steps to independence, even if some of it is made easier for them by being planned in a way that minimises mistakes. If you are not a confident traveller, then that is a first step towards becoming one - just having the courage to go, try things out, see what the tube is like, manage the tickets and the timings and whatever. In a new place, I often prefer subway/underground systems to either bus or foot to start with, because I find them easier to navigate and know what stop I'm at; less interaction with people I'm anxious about talking to; more predictable in terms of timing, etc. It sounds like these girls learned useful skills that they have then been able to transfer to other cities and trips - why keep going on about the fact that walking might have been faster?!