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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Can a 19 year take her 14 year old sister abroad?

119 replies

ZiggysTarbrush · 01/08/2022 21:49

My incredibly anxious unstreetwise girls (who until now haven't been to the cashpoint by themselves or hopped on a local bus) have decided they are buying plane tickets and hotel rooms for New Year's Eve in Amsterdam.

Now while I applaud their ambitions I've tried explaining it's the travel equivalent of lying in bed for years then announcing they are signing up for a marathon in a few months and will need to get used to doing things by themselves without me chaperoning before anyone thinks it's wise for them to go to a big bad European city where they might get lost, hurt, preyed on by bad folks etc.

Apparently I'm a controlling bully for gently pointing this out.

Question if I do not give consent as her parent can I legally prevent my eldest 19 yr old DD from taking her 14 sister away on a plane/Eurostar?

Ffs.

OP posts:
seramum · 02/08/2022 16:41

My two DDs were in a similar position. They wanted to go to Paris at 18 and 15 together. I said no, but I let them go to London for a weekend. Bought hotel, night at a show and they had a couple of days shopping (present). Little do they know, but everything was planned to the nth degree. Hotel was two or three stops from train station (one line), from there could walk into Oxford St, a second tube took them to the theatre (again no changing of tube lines) and so on. They had a great time, and have since stayed in other UK cities alone. This year, they could go abroad (16 and 19) but the budget is the budget and once they worked out how much they'd have to pay (transfers from airport, getting to airport, car parking etc) they decided they pretty much liked being in the UK and they'll keep doing that for a few years 😂.

So maybe offer a UK trip first and let them save up for the hotel or flights etc abroad, it'll soon deter them.

Johnnysgirl · 02/08/2022 16:47

seramum · 02/08/2022 16:41

My two DDs were in a similar position. They wanted to go to Paris at 18 and 15 together. I said no, but I let them go to London for a weekend. Bought hotel, night at a show and they had a couple of days shopping (present). Little do they know, but everything was planned to the nth degree. Hotel was two or three stops from train station (one line), from there could walk into Oxford St, a second tube took them to the theatre (again no changing of tube lines) and so on. They had a great time, and have since stayed in other UK cities alone. This year, they could go abroad (16 and 19) but the budget is the budget and once they worked out how much they'd have to pay (transfers from airport, getting to airport, car parking etc) they decided they pretty much liked being in the UK and they'll keep doing that for a few years 😂.

So maybe offer a UK trip first and let them save up for the hotel or flights etc abroad, it'll soon deter them.

What did they actually learn, if it was stagemanaged to the nth degree?

Soontobe60 · 02/08/2022 16:57

First, where do they intend to stay? Most hotels require the lead guest to be over 21.
Second, what do they intend to do on NYE? The 14yr old can’t go to a club or coffee shop.
Third, how much do they think it would cost, and who do they expect to find their fantasy trip?

LondonMummer · 02/08/2022 16:58

Amsterdam is absolutely HIDEOUS on NYE. I blog about the city and am passionate about sharing the best of it but it's the one day I always tell people to avoid.

It's carnage. Literal explosions going off for hours and hours. Under cars, thrown in the streets, many residents try to leave for the night. Terrifying even for people who don't suffer from anxiety.

It's the most amazing city for families, foodies etc etc (if you know where to head) but would avoid NYE at all costs. I will never agree to be there for New Year again.

RampantIvy · 02/08/2022 17:05

Soontobe60 · 02/08/2022 16:57

First, where do they intend to stay? Most hotels require the lead guest to be over 21.
Second, what do they intend to do on NYE? The 14yr old can’t go to a club or coffee shop.
Third, how much do they think it would cost, and who do they expect to find their fantasy trip?

A backpacker's hostel. DD and her BF went interrailing at 19 and that is where they stayed.

Cameleongirl · 02/08/2022 21:05

The DD can't even speak on the phone to her doctors ffs without me being spokesperson so this fantasy adventure is leagues out of their comfort zones.

Could you share this idea with their doctor (s) so that they can get a professional viewpoint on whether they are ready for a trip like this? Your DD1 will be the responsible adult so the onus will be on her being able to cope with all eventualities. We Mums are usually wrong according to teenagers 😂, but they might listen to a medical professional's opinion.

Obviously, you don't want to discourage them from travelling independently at some point, but if your DD1 can't currently speak to people or pick up a key from your neighbours, it may be too soon.

Atomicspider · 02/08/2022 21:10

The best thing is just a good old nod of the head and smile with a "sounds great".
Don’t participate any further. The idea will be over before it’s begun.

Cameleongirl · 02/08/2022 21:14

Atomicspider · 02/08/2022 21:10

The best thing is just a good old nod of the head and smile with a "sounds great".
Don’t participate any further. The idea will be over before it’s begun.

You might be right, @Atomicspider , we're all over-thinking it!
Perhaps the OP should just sit back!

Atomicspider · 02/08/2022 21:39

Just don’t give it a seconds more thought. It won’t happen.
This is how teenagers deal with FOMO feelings when scrolling through zillions of Insta pics and tiktoks of everyone having seemingly superior summer holidays. They make wild plans, it all feels so easy to them until they have to like, pay and actually organise shit themselves

Paslaptis · 02/08/2022 22:08

The Netherlands recommends but does not require that someone under 18 get parental consent from custodial parent(s)/legal guardian to enter the Netherlands from outside Schengen/EU. The form is not compulsory.

Apart from that, if they're coming from the UK it's not that worrying. Amsterdam airport transit is extremely easy and there are lots of options and they can book and prepay the hotel. They'll be able to get by in English. It can't be that hard to get to the departure airport from where you live. You know your children best but this kind of trip wouldn't be unreasonable for most teenagers. Amsterdam would def not be my choice but if they have the money and the desire and can make the plans, why not?

Your cumulative posts on this thread, though, sound like you have contempt for your children. If you're worried about them OK, but why all the sneering?

Onlyhereforthebatshitneighbours · 02/08/2022 22:19

@Paslaptis her posts read in no such way!

What comes through is complete care and love for her children, and her determination to give them both the opportunities they need to grow.

ZiggysTarbrush · 02/08/2022 22:23

Thanks @Atomicspider that made me laugh and I'll bet you're right. I'll sit back.

No @Paslaptis I do not have any contempt for my kids. I give them everything they could ever wish for physically, emotionally, mentally and financially. I do it alone despite there being three of them and nil help from their dad since he skipped off into the arms of another 4 years ago. I don't mind supporting them through their crises and if that means giving up my bed to one of them or spending hours of time/money ferrying them to doctors and therapists if it means they will have a brighter future than they would without.

I resent being told by them that I'm a controlling bitch for not offering them a lift to the airport for this fantasy trip whilst trying to point out the disparity between their vision of what they are capable of and reality.

This was all announced by them in the same breath of us getting home from a wonderful but expensive holiday in the sun with friends they have known since birth as (a) we won't be going with you next year and (b) we're heading to Amsterdam at Christmas.

I was a bit exasperated as I wrote but surely there is no hint of 'contempt'

Panic over though as @Atomicspider so widely predicted - when I had a quiet word with the eldest saying 'How about we all go but you book your own plane tix and I'll sit & somewhere else' she said she isn't going to be able to go for some time - maybe not for at least a year as she 'has to save up for braces'

Facial dysmorphia saves the day 🙁

Later she asked me for a lift to see her friend 45 mins away and when I suggested the bus/train she admitted there was no way she could do that on her own....

OP posts:
ZiggysTarbrush · 02/08/2022 22:26

Thanks @Onlyhereforthebatshitneighbours
I owe you one. I really appreciate you writing that to @Paslaptis who had me worried for a sec.

OP posts:
IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads · 02/08/2022 23:08

In defence of the 14 year old, DS (14 next month) had never been on a bus by himself until last month, or at all for 5+ years.
We live rurally, he has been able to walk to school until now, and the buses we have are not reliable or frequent enough to be that useful. And then, just at the time that he should have been becoming more independent, taking himself out and about etc lockdown happened.

Last month he did a transition fortnight to high school (3 tier system, he moves at Y9) and has needed to get a bus by himself for the first time. No big deal, he's fine with it, but I can quite see how a 14 year old has never been on a bus.

seramum · 03/08/2022 08:08

"What did they actually learn, if it was stagemanaged to the nth degree?"

They learnt loads. Like the OP, we live rurally so the only bus they'd ever caught is the school bus. There's no direct bus to any of the big towns / cities from our village, We live about 15 miles from any train station, so they've barely been on a train either. Here almost everyone just drives everywhere. We never even go up to London unless it's for something special, as too far really. So managing everything about London by themselves was new.

They rode the tube by themselves for the first time.
They learnt how to read a tube map, which line was theirs, how to find their tube, when to get off, manage the stops and how to get from tube to destination
They checked into a hotel by themselves for the very first time
Had to make sure they were up and out on time the next day
Had to make sure they got back to the station on time for their train back.
Bought a tube ticket by themselves.

Since then, they have now gone off to other cities to stay, usually DD1 drives though.

BloodAndFire · 03/08/2022 09:00

seramum · 03/08/2022 08:08

"What did they actually learn, if it was stagemanaged to the nth degree?"

They learnt loads. Like the OP, we live rurally so the only bus they'd ever caught is the school bus. There's no direct bus to any of the big towns / cities from our village, We live about 15 miles from any train station, so they've barely been on a train either. Here almost everyone just drives everywhere. We never even go up to London unless it's for something special, as too far really. So managing everything about London by themselves was new.

They rode the tube by themselves for the first time.
They learnt how to read a tube map, which line was theirs, how to find their tube, when to get off, manage the stops and how to get from tube to destination
They checked into a hotel by themselves for the very first time
Had to make sure they were up and out on time the next day
Had to make sure they got back to the station on time for their train back.
Bought a tube ticket by themselves.

Since then, they have now gone off to other cities to stay, usually DD1 drives though.

They didn't learn much if they took a tube two stops to Oxford St. Rather than walking.

Bootothegoose · 03/08/2022 09:05

BloodAndFire · 03/08/2022 09:00

They didn't learn much if they took a tube two stops to Oxford St. Rather than walking.

They learnt more than if they got given a lift, I suppose.

QuattroFromagio · 03/08/2022 09:27

BloodAndFire · 03/08/2022 09:00

They didn't learn much if they took a tube two stops to Oxford St. Rather than walking.

Of course they did, if they'd never been on a tube before. yes obviously they could have walked instead, but then another time they really needed the tube, they wouldn't have known how to do it. If you've never been on the tube before, it can seem complicated and confusing - so many ways to buy and use tickets, contactless, oyster etc. Simple once you know which method you're using, but not at first. Reading tube lines, working out how to tell which direction you're going, working on where it tells you which stop you're at and how to find your way out, sometimes when there are lots of different exits. I moved to the UK as an adult, and found it confusing when I first went on a train - having to know the final destination to work out how it's listed on the departure board, not knowing whether/how to validate the ticket, how some train doors worked - automatic, button, reach out the window and open it, how to figure out how to get out of the station or find your way to the platforms, etc., as I'd never been on a train before. Tube was different, but with its own challenges. Sometimes you put the tickets in barriers and pick it up again, sometimes not. Sometimes it's easy to tell which direction the train is going from which platform, other times it's not obvious.

All of that could make an anxious teen a little nervous about doing it alone, and once you've done it once or twice - even just for a couple of stops - you've learned the basics and might be ready for longer or more complicated journeys that would seen daunting if you'd never done anything on your own before.

All the other skills of hotels and timing and checking in/out are valuable too, before planning any more difficult trips. I'd have worried loads about all those things as a teen. I'd never taken a taxi on my own, or checked into a B&B, until I had to do it when I arrived early for university, and both things were really nerve-wracking for me as a very anxious new student.

BloodAndFire · 03/08/2022 11:08

QuattroFromagio · 03/08/2022 09:27

Of course they did, if they'd never been on a tube before. yes obviously they could have walked instead, but then another time they really needed the tube, they wouldn't have known how to do it. If you've never been on the tube before, it can seem complicated and confusing - so many ways to buy and use tickets, contactless, oyster etc. Simple once you know which method you're using, but not at first. Reading tube lines, working out how to tell which direction you're going, working on where it tells you which stop you're at and how to find your way out, sometimes when there are lots of different exits. I moved to the UK as an adult, and found it confusing when I first went on a train - having to know the final destination to work out how it's listed on the departure board, not knowing whether/how to validate the ticket, how some train doors worked - automatic, button, reach out the window and open it, how to figure out how to get out of the station or find your way to the platforms, etc., as I'd never been on a train before. Tube was different, but with its own challenges. Sometimes you put the tickets in barriers and pick it up again, sometimes not. Sometimes it's easy to tell which direction the train is going from which platform, other times it's not obvious.

All of that could make an anxious teen a little nervous about doing it alone, and once you've done it once or twice - even just for a couple of stops - you've learned the basics and might be ready for longer or more complicated journeys that would seen daunting if you'd never done anything on your own before.

All the other skills of hotels and timing and checking in/out are valuable too, before planning any more difficult trips. I'd have worried loads about all those things as a teen. I'd never taken a taxi on my own, or checked into a B&B, until I had to do it when I arrived early for university, and both things were really nerve-wracking for me as a very anxious new student.

I'd have thought that making independent intelligent decisions about how to get from A to B (and indeed where to go and where to stay) would be a more worthwhile learning experience. Not just following a plan written by your mum in every detail.

seramum · 03/08/2022 11:11

"Not just following a plan written by your mum in every detail."

Who says I gave them a plan? I didn't. I just made sure the hotel, theatre and shopping was all easily accessible for a just turned fifteen year old to be able to navigate by herself (should she fall out with / get separated from her system) on her first trip to London by herself. I made sure it was as safe as can be for a naive 15 year old, but let them work it out for themselves.

seramum · 03/08/2022 11:12

Sister not system!

BloodAndFire · 03/08/2022 11:16

seramum · 03/08/2022 11:11

"Not just following a plan written by your mum in every detail."

Who says I gave them a plan? I didn't. I just made sure the hotel, theatre and shopping was all easily accessible for a just turned fifteen year old to be able to navigate by herself (should she fall out with / get separated from her system) on her first trip to London by herself. I made sure it was as safe as can be for a naive 15 year old, but let them work it out for themselves.

You booked the hotel and the show for them. In your first post you were delighted that unbeknownst to them you had deliberately chosen places incredibly close to each other so that you knew they wouldn't have to change tubes (in fact, for the journey you described it was totally unnecessary to use the tube at all).
You are just backtracking now.

Unless your daughters have additional needs, like the op's, it is really ott and unnecessary to micromanage an ADULT and a near-adult like this.

Thousands of 11-year-olds get around London by themselves every day.

BloodAndFire · 03/08/2022 11:18

seramum · 03/08/2022 11:11

"Not just following a plan written by your mum in every detail."

Who says I gave them a plan? I didn't. I just made sure the hotel, theatre and shopping was all easily accessible for a just turned fifteen year old to be able to navigate by herself (should she fall out with / get separated from her system) on her first trip to London by herself. I made sure it was as safe as can be for a naive 15 year old, but let them work it out for themselves.

"Who says I gave them a plan?"

Er, you did. Here's a verbatim quote from your own post:

Little do they know, but everything was planned to the nth degree.

You wrote that. Today. And now you're asking who said you gave them a plan?!!

seramum · 03/08/2022 11:50

No, not backtracking at all.

My children live in a village of a couple of thousand people. They go shopping, in the local towns which have populations of about 20-30,000 people. There is no public transport, so no means for them to get independently to a big city by themselves (until recently when my eldest passed her driving test), so they've never done it.

They've never been on a tube alone, hell they've barely been to London, so like the OP's children it is a big step for them.

Whilst I didn't tell them my detailed plan, as the hotel and theatre trip was their first night away from home together, without adults, and my youngest had just turned 15 (it was her 15th birthday present). Yes, we did make it as safe as possible.

So we drove them to X station instead of Y station, because X station arrives at a different part of London and so they could get a direct tube to Oxford Street, rather than having to change, it's still 1.5 miles, so a bit far to walk with all your overnight luggage.

Hotel was selected as it was walking distance from Oxford Street.

From the hotel, they could catch a different tube direct to Leicester Square. About another mile away.

At no point did I write a detailed plan down for them. They decided everything themselves.

Yes, you're right, there are thousands of 11 year olds who do cross the tubes safely every day. My kids don't. But they do know how to cross a field of cows safely, which ones you can walk past, which ones really must walk around, what to do if the cows charge, they've spent their childhoods swimming in the local rivers, and know how to do this safely. Including life saving. They understand tides and undercurrents. They camp out alone, and can do many things city kids can't do. Hell, living in the countryside, you'd be surprised at the number of adults who can't cross a field of cows safely! The 900 cow attacks each year shows us that.

So it is a different skill set. And like the OP's children, they want to spread their wings, which I think should be supported, but if you have children who are naive about such things, it does need to be taken in small steps. A couple of years back, my daughter had to get the bus from the local town to another large town. We put her on the bus, and she knew exactly where she had to get off, but ended up two miles away, because she didn't realise you needed to press the bell when you wanted to get off. Of course, she's only used school bus before, and you don't use a bell on a school bus.

So yes, going up to London when you've just turned 15, live in the countryside with limited experience of public transport, working out which tube to get, how to read a tube map etc is quite difficult when you're more used to reading the mood of cows!

seramum · 03/08/2022 11:53

@BloodAndFire
"Little do they know, but everything was planned to the nth degree."

Read that again.

Little do they know = they didn't know.

Everything was planned to the nth degree.

So I did the planning (chose train station to take them to, hotel room stay at, bought theatre tickets at an easy to get to theatre) But they didn't know everything was so carefully selected as they didn't have a plan.