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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Are we bringing up a nation of snowflakes??

251 replies

shellstarbarley · 02/10/2021 10:28

Are this generation of kids going to be a nation of snowflakes? I am bringing my children up the way my mum brought me up and I would say I am quite a strong person with minimal issues. I work in a primary school and every little graze or bump has to be accounted for children fall over and cry and scream until somebody comes, very few kids seem to just get up and dust themselves off and carry on. My kids rarely have a day off school but their friends seem to be off for any little thing and everyone seems to be dying when they have a cold or a sprained wrist etc. Parents won't let their children walk to school or even catch a bus so they are reliant at parents at all times. When we were 13 all our pocket money was stopped and she we had to find a part time job I did a paperround, babysitting and washed up in a local pub my brother mucked out at a stables and my other brother helped on our cousins farm. I know now it is much harder to get jobs like it was then but teens parents seem to do so much for them that they can't do much for themselves anymore. I loved being busy and still do and loved the responsibility in my part time jobs aand I remember my dad saying to me when I was out of work in my early 20's and claiming benefits that the one thing I cettainly wasn't was lazy but I would always be out doing something constructive whilst looking for work as they had instilled this strong ethic in me. We got buses and walked everywhere and we never lied to our parents we always told them where we were or used a landline at a friends house or phone box if our plans changed. Maybe looking back as my mum worked full time it was a bit of a parenting cop out. I don't know. BUT I am sure this made us strong adults. I don't give up everytime I get a cold or period pain dose up and carry on like wise I don't miss work. I also remember phoning and booking my own hair and dental and dr appts and even going to doc appts on my own at 15. I am trying really hard to bring my kids up this way but is so hard because their friends get lifts everywhere , their parents give them an endless supply of money and shower them with sympathy every time they have a sniffle or a grazed knee. I want my kids to be able to survive in the adult world because actually it is quite a harsh place and you have to be strong and determined to fight against the problems you may come up against and I think my parents did me a massive favour as I feel able to cope with adult life and conquer the problems because I learnt to build up strategies when I was growing up and not be 100% reliant on my parents for everything.

OP posts:
HarebrightCedarmoon · 03/10/2021 07:54

@UnsuitableHat

As has been said, today’s teens have different pressures and a lot to cope with. I think that for some reason we like to look at ‘the past’ through rose tinted specs, believing that we are tougher than the generations that followed us. I grew up in the 70s and don’t remember people/kids generally being more resilient than they are now.
Quite. What I do remember about school was that it could be a really harsh, cruel, indifferent place in the 1980s. Largely it isn't like that now, and a good thing too. I think Gen Z have had a lot more kindness and understanding extended towards them and it will make them more resilient, not less.
bobsholi · 03/10/2021 08:02

I work in a school and it's been a shock to see just how much children's mental health has been destroyed. My son is a natural worrier and so am I. School has made him so anxious to the point where he's terrified to smile at me if we happen to see eachother during the day in case he gets told off. We've had children having to go through the humiliation of wetting themselves because they weren't allowed to the toilet. Children with rotten headaches due to not being allowed to drink. Kids in the local secondary having to remain in blazer and tie in 30c weather unless they are given permission to take it off. Is it any wonder that by the age of 14/15 they're still waiting for instructions from adults to perform the most basic functions?
Kids today are living a very different life to the ones that their grandparents and great grandparents lived. I don't know how anyone can compare the two and say one is essentially more weak and entitled than the other. The only thing they might have in common is their age and that's about it. You only have to look on this site to discover there are plenty of people in their 40s, 50s etc, struggling with mental health, childhood trauma and lacking "resilience" (hate that word). It's not just something today's children are experiencing.

lightand · 03/10/2021 08:03

@foxgoosefinch

Do you think this is the case for top universities in the UK? Or does it mainly affect lower ranking universities?

Definitely observable at the top ones too. We aren't really able to discipline them if they don't do the work, sadly. But it used to be up until recently, you'd have a certain number of students who were lazy and didn't do enough work and then put on a desperate sprint before exams - they at least had the grace to own it though, and didn't try to pretend otherwise! Now we seem to have a lot of students who don't do the work but also are surprised when they don't do as well as they'd like.

The top ones are as good as ever - some are astonishingly good. But I'd say probably the average band are significantly less hard-working than ten or fifteen years ago, and need a lot more spoon-feeding. They also are extremely wedded to received or popular ideas and find it exceptionally hard to change their minds or evaluate evidence for themselves. It's very much "this is the right view and I won't deviate from it", even if you spend hours discussing sources and texts which complicate their picture.

As an example, our students recently lobbied to have new assessments introduced, so that their marks are spread across weighted coursework, on the grounds that this is supposed to be better for female, state school and minority students. That's the received wisdom, right - that women do better in coursework? It's been a platitude throughout secondary education for decades.

Except - it's not true. We had extremely good data analysis done on our examinations, dating back decades, showing that far from benefiting underprivileged students and women, weighted coursework actually discriminated against them and allowed independent-school educated men to increase their achievement gap. No amount of explaining this made a difference. That's what the student union wanted, and that's what they lobbied for, despite all the data and evidence.

I also agree with @beastlyslumber about the general level of knowledge, too. Time was when you didn't know something your lecturers were talking about, you'd at least try to look alert, and then you'd take notes, go off and do some frantic research and improve your knowledge. Not so much today...

But, as I said, in the intervening period between me being a student and now, there was a generation around 2005-2015 that was actually much more hardworking and professionalised. Better than my generation by a long way I think. I can't help but wonder why that was. They would have been at primary school in the early and mid 2000s, and secondary school in the mid-late 2000s, so I don't know if it was the big influx of money under the Labour governments, or the National Academy For Gifted and Talented Youth which existed in the 2000s for state school students, or the culture in schools at the time, or what it was...it would be interested to hear what teachers think.

Interesting. Wokeness started in earnest in 2014, so that would explain the 2015 part. I wouldnt know about the 2005 onwards part.
Tavelo · 03/10/2021 08:30

The point of yours I agree most with is the getting lifts everywhere. If that reduced then most people would be much healthier, not only because of the exercise but the air quality for everyone.
As for the rest I honestly think most youngsters are pretty fucked however they're brought up now. The way things are going they'll never own a home, they're going to have loads of issues with resources due to the environmental crisis and by the looks of what this government are planning, much fewer of them will go to university. So whether they ever got help for a grazed knee or not they are more or less doomed.

AccidentallyOnPurpose · 03/10/2021 08:33

@Why2why

The responses here cannot be based on reality because research shows kids are less resilient these days, hence why resilience is now a thing taught at schools.

So if the majority on here think there is no problem then who does the findings of these research refer to? Only kids whose mums are not signed up to mumsnet?

Can you link to that research?
lightand · 03/10/2021 08:40

The worrying thing, for society, is that 21st century skills will demand creativity, resilience, initiative, independent learning and yet children are surrounded by bureaucracy, rigidity, risk-aversion, etc. It's not great.

Thought provoking.
And cancel culture is doing nothing for the above.
But I dont suppose some will be bothered by that.

AccidentallyOnPurpose · 03/10/2021 08:43

Many [young people] were so pampered nowadays that they had forgotten that there was such a thing as walking, and they made automatically for the buses… unless they did something, the future for walking was very poor indeed.”
Scottish Rights of Way: More Young People Should Use Them, Falkirk Herald, 1951

Whither are the manly vigour and athletic appearance of our forefathers flown? Can these be their legitimate heirs? Surely, no; a race of effeminate, self-admiring, emaciated fribbles can never have descended in a direct line from the heroes of Potiers and Agincourt...”
Letter in Town and Country magazine republished in Paris Fashion: A Cultural History, 1771

We defy anyone who goes about with his eyes open to deny that there is, as never before, an attitude on the part of young folk which is best described as grossly thoughtless, rude, and utterly selfish.”
The Conduct of Young People, Hull Daily Mail, 1925

They think they know everything, and are always quite sure about it.”
Rhetoric, Aristotle, 4th Century BC

It’s an irony, but so many of us are a cautious, nervous, conservative crew that some of the elders who five years ago feared that we might come trooping home full of foreign radical ideas are now afraid that the opposite might be too true, and that we could be lacking some of the old American gambling spirit and enterprise.”
The Care and Handling of a Heritage: One of the “scared-rabbit” generation reassures wild-eyed elders about future, Life, 1950

Young people] are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances.”
Rhetoric, Aristotle, 4th Century BC

What really distinguishes this generation from those before it is that it's the first generation in American history to live so well and complain so bitterly about it.”
The Boring Twenties, Washington Post, 1993

The beardless youth… does not foresee what is useful, squandering his money.”
Horace, 1st Century BC

Cinemas and motor cars were blamed for a flagging interest among young people in present-day politics by ex-Provost JK Rutherford… [He] said he had been told by people in different political parties that it was almost impossible to get an audience for political meetings. There were, of course, many distractions such as the cinema…”
Young People and Politics, Kirkintilloch Herald, 1938

The Chairman alluding to the problem of young people and their English said his experience was that many did not seem able to express or convey to other people what they meant. They could not put their meaning into words, and found the same difficulty when it came to writing.”
Unable to Express Thoughts: Failing of Modern Young People, Gloucester Citizen, 1936

Parents themselves were often the cause of many difficulties. They frequently failed in their obvious duty to teach self-control and discipline to their own children.”
Problems of Young People, Leeds Mercury, 1938

Probably there is no period in history in which young people have given such emphatic utterance to a tendency to reject that which is old and to wish for that which is new.”
Young People Drinking More, Portsmouth Evening News, 1936

Sounds familiar?

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 03/10/2021 09:04

I think it’s true that schools are a bit more caring than they might have been in the 80’s (that said, most parents nowadays were at school in the 1990s/2000s) but it’s not preparing children for the real world which doesn’t bend over backwards for you, and expects you to sort your own shit out, as well as getting on with things that are dull, boring but pay the bills.

DontGiveAFlyingFig · 03/10/2021 09:11

I tie myself up in knots brining up my 15 & 16 year old DSs.

Of my friendship group we all bring up our children differently, weekend jobs or sporting clubs, private school or local comp, independence or helicoptering - at the end of the day we all think we are doing the right thing for us.

When we all get together all the DCs get on, despite their different upbringings and to my mind that is the most important thing to teach.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 03/10/2021 10:43

I’m a parent who was at school in the 80’s!

TreeSmuggler · 03/10/2021 11:56

I think it's just natural evolution. I went to school in early 00s and the people that made a big fuss, complained all the time, put in for special consideration, etc, ended up doing the best for the least effort. Of course then the idea ends up spreading, maybe subconsciously. People will always act the way that gets them the most and is easiest.

What is your reward for being resilient? Nothing. In fact you are rewarded for not being resilient.

Treeoutside · 03/10/2021 12:02

@whenwillthemadnessend

Time will be the judge for today's teens

They may well be much more resilient longer term having gone through covid.

Or maybe they will swing the other way and have a whole heap of issues.

We can't judge our kids by what we did as kids though as times have changed. Getting a part time job under 16 now is hard. Many employers won't take you and how many of us are lucky enough to have a pub so kids can help Not many

Also the pressure on kids that age to revise is massive compared to my day. I was never encouraged by my school to revise. I knew that I could go to college or find a job easy enough without qualifications so the pressure just wasn't there. House prices were affordable on one wage.

I think I had it a lot easier than my kids ever will. I'm 50

The job situation has changed due to Brexit. It seems to be very easy for teenagers to get jobs in hospitality now.
Treeoutside · 03/10/2021 12:04

@TreeSmuggler

I think it's just natural evolution. I went to school in early 00s and the people that made a big fuss, complained all the time, put in for special consideration, etc, ended up doing the best for the least effort. Of course then the idea ends up spreading, maybe subconsciously. People will always act the way that gets them the most and is easiest.

What is your reward for being resilient? Nothing. In fact you are rewarded for not being resilient.

Employers can sack employees extremely easily in the first 2 years of employment.
Tellmesomethinggirl · 03/10/2021 12:22

Definitely observable at the top ones too. We aren't really able to discipline them if they don't do the work, sadly. But it used to be up until recently, you'd have a certain number of students who were lazy and didn't do enough work and then put on a desperate sprint before exams - they at least had the grace to own it though, and didn't try to pretend otherwise! Now we seem to have a lot of students who don't do the work but also are surprised when they don't do as well as they'd like.

In many continental university systems, you don't have to go through a complicated uni application process, as long as you have your academic stream high school diploma (there is also a technical one for vocational jobs and apprenticeships too) you just rock up at the beginning of term, but you have to earn your place to stay on the course. And if you don't get the required marks at the Christmas or June exams then you are out on your ear. Sometimes as many as 50 % of the students get kicked off the course. There is no getting around it. You do have the opportunity to take the odd resit here and there but there isn't much wriggle room.

lifecoachingandotherbollocks · 03/10/2021 12:28

Just getting over a horrendous cold which has left me drained and floored for much if the week. I must be a snowflakeHmm

MrsSkylerWhite · 03/10/2021 12:35

DazzlePaintedBattlePants

@MrsSkylerWhite I grew up in Northern Ireland in the Troubles. Classmates families ha 24h police guard at their house because their father was in the judiciary, others had lost family members in the semiskilled bombings and one routinely checked under their car for bombs as their father was a journalist. We were sent home from school because of bombscares, and actual bombs. And yet most of us coped.

The mental health issues predate the pandemic.”

Yes, they do and I’ve no business whatsoever questioning the result of what you personally grew up with on your character.

For everyone like you who came through in tact, though, I wonder how many didn’t? I’ve seen countless documentaries where people who were children growing up with the same circumstances surrounding them are still dealing with the impact on their lives, their trust in others, their anxiety and their ability to form relationships and their illogical mistrust of a whole group of people in their community even now, decades later. These were mostly also people with supportive family around them.

I wonder whether the difference now is that young people aren’t expected just to bury it inside, show a brave face and get on with it. It’s positively encouraged from early years to talk your feelings through. I was told the complete opposite as a child, our family dynamic was just that and I was not to discuss it or how I felt about it with anyone, on pain of considerable retribution.

Someone way earlier in the thread was taking great pride in having been brought up “hard”. I question which is the healthier approach and my personal experience of being “hard” or “tough” or “resilient” or whatever a parent chose to call it may well catch up with you one day, years later and at the smallest, oddest trigger.

What do I know, though 🤷‍♀️ No more nor less than the average Jo.

AlexaShutUp · 03/10/2021 12:47

@MrsSkylerWhite

DazzlePaintedBattlePants

@MrsSkylerWhite I grew up in Northern Ireland in the Troubles. Classmates families ha 24h police guard at their house because their father was in the judiciary, others had lost family members in the semiskilled bombings and one routinely checked under their car for bombs as their father was a journalist. We were sent home from school because of bombscares, and actual bombs. And yet most of us coped.

The mental health issues predate the pandemic.”

Yes, they do and I’ve no business whatsoever questioning the result of what you personally grew up with on your character.

For everyone like you who came through in tact, though, I wonder how many didn’t? I’ve seen countless documentaries where people who were children growing up with the same circumstances surrounding them are still dealing with the impact on their lives, their trust in others, their anxiety and their ability to form relationships and their illogical mistrust of a whole group of people in their community even now, decades later. These were mostly also people with supportive family around them.

I wonder whether the difference now is that young people aren’t expected just to bury it inside, show a brave face and get on with it. It’s positively encouraged from early years to talk your feelings through. I was told the complete opposite as a child, our family dynamic was just that and I was not to discuss it or how I felt about it with anyone, on pain of considerable retribution.

Someone way earlier in the thread was taking great pride in having been brought up “hard”. I question which is the healthier approach and my personal experience of being “hard” or “tough” or “resilient” or whatever a parent chose to call it may well catch up with you one day, years later and at the smallest, oddest trigger.

What do I know, though 🤷‍♀️ No more nor less than the average Jo.

I agree that many people were taught to bury trauma and put on a brave face, but that doesn't mean that the impact goes away. My DH was brought up in very difficult circumstances. He lost his dad in some kind of accident at 14 and his brother also died very suddenly when he was 17. After more than 25 years together, I still don't know what actually happened to either of them because he cannot bring himself to talk about it. He would say that he has dealt with it. I would say that I see the impact of that trauma on a daily basis. It doesn't go away.
AlexaShutUp · 03/10/2021 12:49

And fwiw, I do feel that it would be beneficial for him to talk about it and actually process the emotions that he has buried all of these years. I know that he was traumatised by witnessing his mother's grief, and from that, he has inferred that expressing strong emotions is bad. I don't think that has helped him at all. Sad

MrsSkylerWhite · 03/10/2021 12:54

I agree with you, Alexa.

Unfortunately, others would no doubt throw “snowflakery” at him if he did seek counsel. A minority, I think but minorities always tend to shout loudest.

Anyone who attempts to begin a conversation about a whole generation of individual people by immediately kicking off with “snowflake” rarely has anything further worth giving the time of day to.

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2021 13:49

Anyone who attempts to begin a conversation about a whole generation of individual people by immediately kicking off with “snowflake” rarely has anything further worth giving the time of day to.

And yet the OP's thread has generated some really interesting discussions about mental health, education, parenting, social media, technology and more. So clearly she did have something very worthwhile to contribute. Focusing on one word and ignoring the rest of the discussion seems a bit silly.

AccidentallyOnPurpose · 03/10/2021 14:04

@beastlyslumber

Anyone who attempts to begin a conversation about a whole generation of individual people by immediately kicking off with “snowflake” rarely has anything further worth giving the time of day to.

And yet the OP's thread has generated some really interesting discussions about mental health, education, parenting, social media, technology and more. So clearly she did have something very worthwhile to contribute. Focusing on one word and ignoring the rest of the discussion seems a bit silly.

Her contribution was a whole 3 posts , regurgitating complaints as old as time regardless of the new terminology.

It's the other posters that contributed and "made" the thread.

julieca · 03/10/2021 14:05

There is nothing wrong with seeking counselling if it helps you. But the idea that you should openly express every bad feeling is not always helpful either.
I actually think over the generations we probably have become less tough, but I don't automatically see that as a bad thing. My grandfather was at full-time work at 13 years old and fought in the trenches. I doubt most 13-year-olds in Britain today could cope with the work he did - most full-grown men couldn't. It was hard physical work. But I don't think 13-year-olds should have to cope with that.
In the generation before, my great grandmother left home to become of times with the other servants, but she said it was a hard life with very hard work. Again I don't want 12-year-old girls today in Britain to be able to cope with that.
Although there are blips with specific generations having it easier or harder, in Britain over the years, amongst ordinary people, children do have an easier life than they used to. So of course their ability to cope with very tough childhoods is not the same, and I don't want it to be.
Young people do need to learn to cope with the vagaries of ordinary life. Not everything is easy and you do need to be able to cope with that. Coping might include getting counselling, but it also might include sports, praying, getting involved in community life, or nurturing close family relationships.

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2021 14:43

Her contribution was a whole 3 posts , regurgitating complaints as old as time regardless of the new terminology.

Her contribution was to start the thread. That was my point. She started a thread about a topic that people were interested in debating and discussing.

My other point was that some pp focusing on one word so they can have a go at OP instead of saying something interesting is silly. Also a shame and also a bit "snowflaky" tbh.

beastlyslumber · 03/10/2021 14:48

Young people do need to learn to cope with the vagaries of ordinary life. Not everything is easy and you do need to be able to cope with that. Coping might include getting counselling, but it also might include sports, praying, getting involved in community life, or nurturing close family relationships.

I think someone mentioned this already but the truth is that ordinary life is not easy. No one feels good or happy all of the time. Everyone has problems to cope with. And yet there is a pervasive current in society that suggests normal unhappiness and anxiety are problems that need to be fixed.

In the UK, society is the safest and most prosperous it has been in basically all of human history. The freedoms, opportunities, and luxuries afforded to young people is beyond what our forebears could have imagined. And yet it seems we are unhappier and more anxious than ever.

Maybe too much safety and comfort isn't actually good for humans? We have evolved brains that are hyper aware of threats, and bodies that are responsive to dangers. But there are no threats and dangers to occupy us or run away from and so we end up feeling existentially challenged by what are quite trivial things?

Bitofachinwag · 03/10/2021 14:54

@CorianderAndCream

Also it's illegal to work at 13 now and people are entitled to time off work and school when they're sick or injured. It's called human rights.

And the phone thing doesn't really matter. Everything is moving to online booking systems anyway. Soon there won't need to be phones.

No it's not illegal to work at 13. 13 year olds can work part time.