Are we bringing up a nation of snowflakes??

[shellstarbarley]

Are this generation of kids going to be a nation of snowflakes? I am bringing my children up the way my mum brought me up and I would say I am quite a strong person with minimal issues. I work in a primary school and every little graze or bump has to be accounted for children fall over and cry and scream until somebody comes, very few kids seem to just get up and dust themselves off and carry on. My kids rarely have a day off school but their friends seem to be off for any little thing and everyone seems to be dying when they have a cold or a sprained wrist etc. Parents won't let their children walk to school or even catch a bus so they are reliant at parents at all times. When we were 13 all our pocket money was stopped and she we had to find a part time job I did a paperround, babysitting and washed up in a local pub my brother mucked out at a stables and my other brother helped on our cousins farm. I know now it is much harder to get jobs like it was then but teens parents seem to do so much for them that they can't do much for themselves anymore. I loved being busy and still do and loved the responsibility in my part time jobs aand I remember my dad saying to me when I was out of work in my early 20's and claiming benefits that the one thing I cettainly wasn't was lazy but I would always be out doing something constructive whilst looking for work as they had instilled this strong ethic in me. We got buses and walked everywhere and we never lied to our parents we always told them where we were or used a landline at a friends house or phone box if our plans changed. Maybe looking back as my mum worked full time it was a bit of a parenting cop out. I don't know. BUT I am sure this made us strong adults. I don't give up everytime I get a cold or period pain dose up and carry on like wise I don't miss work. I also remember phoning and booking my own hair and dental and dr appts and even going to doc appts on my own at 15. I am trying really hard to bring my kids up this way but is so hard because their friends get lifts everywhere , their parents give them an endless supply of money and shower them with sympathy every time they have a sniffle or a grazed knee. I want my kids to be able to survive in the adult world because actually it is quite a harsh place and you have to be strong and determined to fight against the problems you may come up against and I think my parents did me a massive favour as I feel able to cope with adult life and conquer the problems because I learnt to build up strategies when I was growing up and not be 100% reliant on my parents for everything.

People like you have been whinging/bragging about the same thing since at least my gran's generation, even if they didn't have a specific insult for it. I'm sure most of the next generation will be fine, even without your superior parenting skills.

Yes kids cry over grazes knees- normal. I give up. RTFT!

I agree though that there has been too much emphasis on self-confidence, self-esteem, self-fulfillment, self-care (all good things!) but not enough emphasis on "the other person's perspective" and thinking about others in general.

I think this is where our education goes wrong tbh as it is very individualistic in the UK as compared with some other countries. Again that's not all wrong by any means, but there is a balance to be struck.

Yes, there's a lot of emphasis on rights, but very little on responsibility I find. That responsibility seems to be passed on to others, even personal responsibility, and the teaching that when you mess up, or when something goes wrong it's your right to have it sorted out, but not your responsibility to facilitate that, or do it yourself.

I think fault and responsibilities get confused too, something can be your responsibility, even if it's not your fault, but there seems to be a leaning that if you take responsibility, you also accept the fault, which leads to criticism - which no one wants. So the responsibility is shunned. Not everything is 'blame-able' (I think I have made up a word there 🤷) but everyone wants someone to blame when things go wrong and that's being increasingly facilitated.

We've come to a place where all risk is viewed negatively, and it must be prevented at all costs, but by someone else. That's just not possible, each individual has to take some responsibility for themselves, and further to that, realise that humans are fallible by their nature, and sometimes they get it wrong, and though not intentional or with bad intentions, it's still a responsibility to deal with that by the individual.

@PartyStory

Wish people would stop using the word “snowflake” to mean whatever they don’t like.

It comes from the movie “Fight Club” and was adopted by 4chan and spread from there. It just means someone who thinks they are special and unique. It doesn’t have anything to do with personal strength or whatever you are complaining about here.

It might have originated in Fight Club, but it was being used widely by American academics well before 4Chan was ever invented, in the Chronicle of Higher Education (the US equivalent to the Times Higher Education Supplement). It was used to describe the increasing number of students who were seemingly unable to do minor tasks and assignments without lots of help or parental help. Whether you like it or not, it’s definitely not just some far right term.

I work with undergraduates and we have always given some students with a variety of problems a lot of pastoral support. This really has massively increased in the twenty or so years I’ve been doing my job. Where once one or two in every ten might need help or adjustments or exam allowances for anxiety or personal/mental health problems, I estimate it’s now close on 60%. The students who don’t are now very much in the minority. In recent years I’ve had cohorts where hardly any don’t have some kind of doctor’s letter for mental health issues, exam allowances, counselling etc. This dramatic increase means something is going wrong somewhere.

My department has cut the weekly workload and the number of modules they take by at least 30% compared to ten years ago. My students complain the workload is too high and they can’t cope, but ten years ago the cohorts were taking twice the number of contact hours and paper requirements per week, and managed fine. Ten years ago our department used to get over 95 percent satisfaction ratings every year in the national student survey. Now with a dramatically reduced workload, the percentage of complaints about overwork, anxiety and stress has absolutely shot up. A real complaints culture has taken hold in the last few years. It’s very marked.

Don't call people 'snowflakes', OP. It's dumb.

Not snowflakes, no. Snowflakes are quite easy going.

Overly demanding, rigid, bureaucratic, reliant on authority, risk adverse - it's not only parents, this is the influence from schools as well so it is hardly surprising this is what the children will become.

This is actually one of the reasons we decided to home educate - to among many other things allow our children to climb trees, to learn how not to fall or how to cope with falling through practical experiences and self-efficacy. They learn and build on their own abilities and its under their control. Few, if any, schools could risk doing that.

The worrying thing, for society, is that 21st century skills will demand creativity, resilience, initiative, independent learning and yet children are surrounded by bureaucracy, rigidity, risk-aversion, etc. It's not great.

@zoemum2006 in what way? The most depressing thing for me is the years of unhappiness that class had before it was sorted, completely by luck. No one was happy - the disruptive children, their classmates, the staff.

I think there are a significant number of SEND that are a direct result of the modern classroom environment and educational ethos.

How old are your children?

Also when l tried to send dd to dentist in her own age 14, they phoned me and asked me to come with her. She wasn’t old enough to be in her own.

Oh wow OP, do you say things like this in real life? I'd rather my kid grew up to be a bit of a snowflake than a judgemental bore.

Also it’s absolutely routine now that when you give undergrad students work or reading, almost none of them actually do it all. Most of them do a bit and then quite cheerfully admit they aren’t doing all the work. During the last 3-5 years it’s become absolutely routine for students not to do the reading, not to turn in essays, to use academic meetings to talk about personal mental health problems, to be given large amounts of pastoral support, free counselling and resources, to not turn up to teaching, and then to be disappointed by their exam grades and complain they haven’t “felt supported”. It genuinely does not seem to occur to them that if you want to do well you actually do the reading and the work and you take your lecturers’ advice.

I would say that students between about 2005 and 2015 worked way harder than I or my friends ever did at university, and I was regularly surprised at how resilient, self-sufficient and hard-working they were. It was a pleasure to teach such competent young people.

Since about 2015 it’s been the complete reverse. I don’t know what’s changed since then - the culture in general? Something in the school system?

YANBU

My 9 year old DSS still gets washed in the shower by his DM, has his shoes put on for him half of the time, is supposedly incapable of getting himself a drink, snack or scrape his leftovers into the bin. He has his food cut up for him. He isn't allowed to play outside unsupervised and will probably still be getting walked to school when he's 15. Any minor trip or fall and the floodgates open, can't bare to be told off and gets hysterical.

No special needs whatsoever.

OTOH I have the same sort of thinking as you do and my DD is 2.5 and already fiercely independent, she washes herself in the bath and wants to do absolutely everything by herself. If she falls over she shrugs it off and carries on. If I try to help her to get dressed I'm told off "no no no, I can do it by myself" and that extends to everything else she's physically capable of doing.

The mind boggles.

In my opinion today's teenagers are far more resilient, the snowflake generation seems to be from early twenties to early thirties, they are the ones who get upset or triggered easily.

@foxgoosefinch

Also it’s absolutely routine now that when you give undergrad students work or reading, almost none of them actually do it all. Most of them do a bit and then quite cheerfully admit they aren’t doing all the work. During the last 3-5 years it’s become absolutely routine for students not to do the reading, not to turn in essays, to use academic meetings to talk about personal mental health problems, to be given large amounts of pastoral support, free counselling and resources, to not turn up to teaching, and then to be disappointed by their exam grades and complain they haven’t “felt supported”. It genuinely does not seem to occur to them that if you want to do well you actually do the reading and the work and you take your lecturers’ advice.

I would say that students between about 2005 and 2015 worked way harder than I or my friends ever did at university, and I was regularly surprised at how resilient, self-sufficient and hard-working they were. It was a pleasure to teach such competent young people.

Since about 2015 it’s been the complete reverse. I don’t know what’s changed since then - the culture in general? Something in the school system?

The huge increase in fees. I think they feel they deserve a hell of a lot in return for £9250. It’s onereason why the current system is so pernicious.

My 13 yo is far more emotionally resilient than me even now because of her upbringing and Ive had a lot of therapy to get where I am today. Dd is allowed her own mind, which I was not. She also is being taught to be respectful and considerate of others. I agree that too many people are being taught self actualisation and not enough to be societally responsible.

Yes, I do a lot, too much for dd. On the flip side she is learning in a far more pressured environment than I ever learnt. She has a similar amount of freedom to what I had. But she isn’t expected to work as I did from 13. She has extra curricular activities and she earns these by working hard at school and being respectful (mostly) with us.

I think the word snowflake is used too flippantly. Children have learned a lot of resilience during the pandemic and where perhaps parents have been too lenient, they will be learning cold realities due to new laws and schooling expectations.

A lot of people, who think they’re hard as nails are in denial; scratch below the surface and there’s a lot going on below, permanently stifled.

@antoniawhite it hasn’t really correlated with the fee increases, which have been there for some time longer than the current undergraduate culture. I’d say it’s only in the last 3/4 years that it’s changed - before then many full fee cohorts didn’t seem to be like this.

It feels like a culture change, and it’s gone along with a sudden anti-authority culture so that where it used to be that students were delighted to get away from the school system and keen to be treated like adults, and interact with their lecturers more equally, now they regard us with great suspicion and seem to be looking out for any occasion to make a complaint or spot nonexistent “bigotry”.

It’s a kind of oppositional attitude that I’ve been surprised by as I’d taught for more than fifteen years without encountering that, and suddenly it seems to be everywhere.

I agree with the OP and was brought up much the same in the 1950s. It made me a stronger and harder person with the self reliance to pick myself up when life knocked me down.

My parents not only brought me up "hard" but gave me no encouragement to study or do well in school. They believed that aspiring to do better than your parents was to be a snob and studying was something working people did not do.

My grandmother probably did more to help and encourage me than my parents but she was no softie. A true Edwardian lady with strong morals and an iron will. She was the kind of grandma who taught kids to climb back on the horse when they fell off rather than sitting there and whinging.

The world may have changed a great deal but Its bloody hard out there and you are giving your children the tools and the wherewithall to forge their own path.

Actually I think OP has many valid points, but this thread immediately took a nasty turn, and now it seems we can't discuss this rationally and pleasantly.

Why can't we have a middle ground. Parents are much more over invested than they used to be, we could take a minor step back, without resorting to the polar opposite - not going back to some of the parenting of pre 70's of nigh on neglect.

I agree to an extent. When little, mine fell over and I looked at them and said ‘up you get’ instead of running over to comfort them. It meant if they actually cried I knew they’d really hurt themselves and I could comfort them.

My son has just turned 10 and will be getting a train to and from school on his own after half term (yr 5). He is capable and will grow hugely in independence as a result of this and I am proud to see how he gets on.

My 7 yr old wanted my help with everything. I praise his independence when I see it and that has helped him to develop. He now gets himself up, washed and dressed with minimal intervention from me.

Children get huge confidence from relying on themselves and managing, knowing you’re there if it really goes wrong. There is an element of personality though op’s approach balanced with lots of love and support sounds appropriate to me.

Op, I grew up like you, working from 13, buying my own clothes etc. I remember being cold every winter. I remember my first boyfriend grumbling when I wore the same outfit three times in a row because it was all I had. I was the only child in class not to go on the French trip. Not having pads or tampons, having awful skin because no-one cared enough to help. Oh yes, It was a laugh a minute.

Of course I provide better for my child. He isn't a snowflake, doesn't lack resolve, he just lives in a more civilised world.

... now they regard us with great suspicion and seem to be looking out for any occasion to make a complaint or spot nonexistent “bigotry”.

It’s a kind of oppositional attitude that I’ve been surprised by as I’d taught for more than fifteen years without encountering that, and suddenly it seems to be everywhere.

V interesting. I wonder if that is because they are bringing on-line habits in to the classroom? The "point-scoring" culture is very much derived from on-line debate.

As an aside I heard a professor of education on the radio a while back talking about how we are still in the *wild west" age of the Internet and our DC almost being "brought up" on-line is one huge psychological experiment and no one knows the ultimate effect it will have on our children's minds, bodies, attitudes and thought processes. Scary stuff!

I agree for the most part, OP.

I think the most harmful thing for kids right now is smartphones. IMO they should be banned for under-16s. Too many children live in a virtual fantasy world. They're not playing outside, they're not exploring the world, not having real conversations and finding themselves or learning how to problem solve. It's all in their phones so they don't feel the need.

Add to that the violence and pornography, the sexting and abuse, bullying and the threat of losing a future job because of your teenage stupidity, and I don't see any benefits in letting children have phones at all.

Sorry, I know it's a bit tangential to your points, but I think it's part of the same thing. They are often focused on weird 'issues' and social contagions and not even noticing the world and people around them.

Some really valid points, I do worry for the future of this country with the mindset some people have. We need outstanding people of the future who will go above and beyond and not give up at the first hurdle at times. Resilience helps so much with support also. It’s difficult to get the balance right sometimes however.

OP (or anyone) have you read 'The Coddling of the American Mind'? It addresses many of the issues you raise in a really thoughtful and interesting way.

[quote foxgoosefinch]@antoniawhite it hasn’t really correlated with the fee increases, which have been there for some time longer than the current undergraduate culture. I’d say it’s only in the last 3/4 years that it’s changed - before then many full fee cohorts didn’t seem to be like this.

It feels like a culture change, and it’s gone along with a sudden anti-authority culture so that where it used to be that students were delighted to get away from the school system and keen to be treated like adults, and interact with their lecturers more equally, now they regard us with great suspicion and seem to be looking out for any occasion to make a complaint or spot nonexistent “bigotry”.

It’s a kind of oppositional attitude that I’ve been surprised by as I’d taught for more than fifteen years without encountering that, and suddenly it seems to be everywhere.[/quote]
This is really depressing. A kind of snowflake / woke culture among young people? Has it come over here from North America?

It feels like a culture change, and it’s gone along with a sudden anti-authority culture so that where it used to be that students were delighted to get away from the school system and keen to be treated like adults, and interact with their lecturers more equally, now they regard us with great suspicion and seem to be looking out for any occasion to make a complaint or spot nonexistent “bigotry”.

I agree with this (and it's been my experience also) except I don't think it stems from a sense of anti-authoritarianism at all. What they are looking for is when you or anyone steps out of line with what they perceive to be the authority. They are the most conformist generation in a long time, and they are keen to police others who seem not to be conforming to what they believe to be right. I think young people are very authoritarian in their culture, frighteningly so.