I need help wording this effectively but sensitively to a difficult teenager

[Ladybirdman]

My DD was always a good, helpful, sweet natured girl who doted on her younger brother. Two years ago she changed and became moody, sullen, over whelmingly negative. She has had counselling to help her deal with negative thoughts but remains moody and not very nice at home. She is 17.

She does nothing at all to help around the house. When I ask her directly (say to empty the dishwasher) she will do so resentfully and with bad Grace and only ever when asked. The other night we went out to dinner, she was reasonably okay (she doesn't offer conversation but will respond when spoken to) and at the end of the evening I gave my 10 year old a hug as he said something funny. DD got in a strop. You love him more than me type things. I said you know I love you, I worry about you always, i drive you everywhere and I always make sure there is nutritious food available for you. When you don't think I love you remember those things say "I love you and think about you all the time". Its like trying to deal with a cactus. She sulked for the journey home and closed the door in my face when we came in and refused to look at me for the rest of the evening.

I want to say: buck up you selfish, spoiled girl. I love you, I am here for you always but it's a two way street. You need to pull your weight and not think you're the only one who needs a bit of support around the house. You are well loved and cared for.

BUT she is inclined towards sinking into a black mood and I don't want to be callous while at the same time feel she needs to grow up and stop being so bloody self absorbed.

Because she is a sensitive teenager with a history of low mood and counselling how do I talk to her? I feel like I am failing her because she says I am but I also feel like I am failing her for allowing her to believe at 17 that she is extra special. In my honest opinion she needs to cop herself on. My mother says it's because I always treated her as though she was extra special and now she absorbs all of my time and energy rather than it being shared with her sibling (and my mother is my DD's No1 fan so that was a shock to hear).

I am at a loss here. I have hated every bit of parenting her for the past two years and I don't have a clue how to do this. She is constantly negative. Everything is worse for her. Everything. Well of course, in reality, it's not, she is healthy and clever and pretty and I want to say this but I fear she may be a little manipulative and will only allow the picture to be painted with her as a hard done by victim.

Did something happen two years ago?

I'd just say it blunt she needs a wake up call and strong parenting xxx

NO. I don't know what triggered it but I asked several times and I wasn't working at the time so she was with me all the time and was still close and assured me nothing happened to trigger the change as she did her counsellor. There was very little opportunity for anything to happen without my knowing so I believe her.

I would say bluntly 'I love you very much - but not everybody in the world does, and you are about to become an adult. It is time to stop wallowing in self pity and believing that life is all about you or you will find the world a very difficult place'.

Set it out. Rights and responsibilities. That living together is an exchange and she can’t take it all for granted.

It sounds like you’re frightened of upsetting her. Why? Why do you pussyfoot around her.

She wants lifts and things, the she pulls her weight in the home. She 17 now, off to uni perhaps soon?

Does she have a job? Could she volunteer?

It sounds like your empathy has been worn down over the last two years. It’s so hard and confusing being a teenager. Getting an overview might give you perspective and help: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/25/secrets-of-the-teenage-brain

I don't think you can change her with anything you say (no matter how reasonable), sorry. My middle boy is over sensitive & now I joke with youngest about "How much is he going to over-react THIS time?" We have bets on it. Helps us to cope & not take middle-boy too seriously.

When I ask her directly (say to empty the dishwasher) she will do so resentfully and with bad Grace and only ever when asked.

If she does it, then it's done & you're doing well. Don't reward her with attention. She can be grumpy if she likes. Flip side is... tell her that she's being lovely when she is ... just being reasonable. She wants to communicate, make it nicer for her to communicate nicely.

gave my 10 year old a hug as he said something funny. DD got in a strop. You love him more than me type things.

Yeah my 17yo will do shit like that. Sibling rivalry is a bitch. I imagine mine would blow up but I would still say this: "Not everything is about you." And let her tirade. Point being, don't reward her by talking about her relationship with you. If she wants to stoke that, then she can find a way to do it that doesn't have to be hurtful to your other kid(s).

Its like trying to deal with a cactus.

I swear it's biological programming, that they do this so that we will be glad when they move out....

hmm, i'm still inclined to wonder why she changed so dramatically two years ago...

rather than say anything outright would a text conversation work? that age group tend to like it more than us.

id start by saying Darling i love you- whats going on you seem so unhappy...

In your position I would say ‘I love you. I can see how unhappy you are and that sometimes I say or do things that make you feel worse. But I am always trying to show you how much I care - by driving you around, by buying the things you need, by being here to talk to you. I’m sorry if it doesn’t always feel like those things are what you want. What would you like? What can I do to make sure you know how much I love you? What would make it easier for you to tell me how you feel?’

I’m sure you’ve tried all this. But as a former very unhappy teenager, I would have loved my parents to have said something similar to me.

She sounds incredibly angry about something. I wonder if you might think about talking to someone together?

How does she get on with her Dad?

My DD has spells like this, i just let her get on with it. She also had counselling at 14 and when i was invited to a session tbe therapist talked about housework pressures and advised me to leave it.
She is now 16, did great in GCSEs and is enjoying her part time job.
Now and then she will engage but often doesn't, at times i ask if theres anything i can do to help her.
I tend not to ask her to do stuff as it creates hostility.

Im not sure if they can help it or not, id say not as so many are like this.
Each day i try to make sure my love gets through, and keep it that basic.
If she has a problem she does come and talk to me and i make myself available.

How important is it?
I just want her to be relaxed and free.

She does have childcare responsibilities for her little brother (who she dislikes too)
Obviously i try to mitigate this where i can.

They dont listen to us, but they never fail to imitate.
The behaviours you exhibit will teach her more than anything else.

My two penneth!

Best wishes

I swear it's biological programming, that they do this so that we will be glad when they move out

I have read this before and I swear it's true. She will (hopefully) go to university (away from home) in two years.

Thanks for the good advice, there is a similar thread on aibu at the moment so I don't feel so alone. Fuck it's difficult though, I was a difficult teenager for my parents and (naively) thought that because DD and I were so close that it would not be the same for us.

I could have written this!! I actually came on to write a similar post. My DD is really draining me. Nothing I do makes her happy. She’s horrible to me, her dad and brother. She’s rude and disrespectful and is only nice when she wants a lift/money etc. I’m sympathetic and have tried talking, asking what she needs, therapy etc. But I want to scream that she’s so damn ungrateful and precious it’s making me dread being around her.

"Sensitive" "wallowing in self pity" "selfish"

If you had said these words to me when I was a depressed teenager, I wouldn't have emerged from my room again for a week.

I know it's exhausting to deal with, but she's obviously struggling with her mental health and tough love won't work. Take her to the GP.

hmm, i'm still inclined to wonder why she changed so dramatically two years ago...

At that age the culprit would be hormones. There are huge surges at points and they actually have a effect on brain wiring, it’s essentially rewired every time these surges occur. Some kids it doesn’t affect as much, some are hugely affected and it’s probably what’s happened here.

I feel your pain OP, I’ve had a combo of ones who were okay and others utterly fucking horrific, they all come out the other side as decent human beings but I think 17yo is a bit hopeful!

You don’t sound like you are doing yourself any favours though. I just did the cause and effect thing. Don’t help out in the kitchen, act like a dick, I’m not putting myself out making your dinner. I had many an outraged teenager when I served up and they didn’t get any. Pretty simple, you don’t contribute to the running of the house, you can get yourself dinner. As long as I have a kitchen stocked with adequate food then that’s my job done and you can crack on and sort yourself out. Same goes for washing etc. I found the cause/effect thing seemed to work begrudgingly for a while then they would slip back and we’d get on the merry-go-round again.

I think you need to be tough on kids to a point. We all seem to be afraid to pull them up on their behaviour. Let her know that you, like everyone else, RESPOND to the way YOU are treated by her. She is well and truly old enough to grasp the concept of reaponsibilities and manners, and I bet when out in the “real world”, she is as sweet as pie. She needs to be told and shown that you are not a series of functions designed to facilitate an easy life for her, but a separate person with feelings and plans of your own. This is where the whole “cult” of modern motherhood has failed us completely. We have raised children who don’t see us as beings at all.

I'm.not convinced that "I worry about you, drive you and make sure there is nutritious food" would reassure me in that situation. The food bit is your job, the worrying is part for the course and the driving bit I bet if you are honest with yourself you do with as much grace as she does the dishwasher.

How about instead of telling her why her feeling of not being loved is wrong, you show compassion for her feeling that she is not loved? Also maybe think a bit about how you communicate because I have never ever either been argued out of my feelings or suddenly seen they were incorrect because someone said they were, neither have I successfully shown anyone where their feelings were incorrect.

She feels unloved is not at all as saying you don't love her. Your daughter feels unloved, and since you love her, you must want to know more about why she feels this way

This sounds really close to bullying behaviour, ragged:
“My middle boy is over sensitive & now I joke with youngest about "How much is he going to over-react THIS time?" We have bets on it. Helps us to cope & not take middle-boy too seriously.”

Your middle child isn’t choosing to be “over-sensitive”, ragged. Chumming up with a younger (and so very impressionable) to criticise him is horrible. However much it helps you ‘cope’. This might give you healthier coping strategies: hsperson.com/books/the-highly-sensitive-child/

"I drive you places, I worry about you, I make you food" may seem like very prosaic ways of showing love compared to a spontaneous hug for her sibling because he's so funny, you couldn't help it. My mum once told me that she loved me but didn't always like me and it has stayed with me my whole life. Even now all I want is for her to say that she enjoys my company, finds me funny, loves spending time with me etc. Maybe try showing her that you like her as well as love her - and if you're struggling to at the moment, try and find some way of connecting with her on her level (shopping? Cinema? TV show you both like?) Don't make your affection dependent on her behaving well or helping out. Make her want to help out because she feels valued and wants to bask in your praise. In that way I think parenting teens isn't much different to parenting toddlers - much more effective to focus on the good stuff than the bad.

I was diagnosed with depression at 14, have struggled ever since.. Sometimes it's hormones and they grow out of it, other times it's a chemical imbalance in the brain. I would suggest maybe just spending some one on one time, going for something to eat without your son and husband, cinema dates, maybe start walking together, the fresh air will do you both good. It sounds silly but these little things can mean a lot to a young person who is trying to find their way. Life is so different now from how we grew up with the pressure of social media. Just let her know that you are there for her and rise above the strops, it might be her way of telling you she needs your support without actually asking for it. Give her a hug out of the blue, for no reason other than you want to hug her. I hug my girls everyday and my mum when I'm feeling sad and it really helps. (maybe I'm just a sop lol)

Total agreement that being reasoned out of a feeling is never going to work.
She is telling you how she feels and you are telling her she doesn’t or shouldn’t feel that. Try batting it gently back-
“ what would being loved by me feel like it look like?” “What can I do to help you?”
Where are the men in your life? Her dad or or your sons dad? Are they the same person? It sounds like you’ve a need for support and helping out- is that her role? What could you as a family do differently? Could she play cards with her brother to let you do some jobs? Can you get household chores that she and her brother can do? It sounds like you valued her more when she was kind and helpful and now she isn’t you’ve withdrawn some of that love. Your love language is very much task orientated isn’t it? What’s hers?
There are 5- quality time, words of affirmation, acts of service (yours!), physical touch and gifts... do you feel less loved when she doesn’t help out? Why does she feel less loved? Is hers maybe physical touch and you don’t cuddle her because you see her as a grown up? Lots to go on... tread carefully.

Very wise and helpful words from @Isadora2007 I agree the relationship sounds conditional.

What kind of relationship did you have with your parents OP? Were you loved because of what you were or what you did?

How often do you show her physical affection? I've recently read about the 5 languages of love and realised they can extend to many of the relationships in my life. I wonder if her reaction to her brother being hugged was her way of expressing that is how she would like to be appreciated rather than words or acts of servitude.

@peachgreen that's actually a common saying between parents/parental figures and teens. I guess no-one told you that which is why you have taken it to heart.

OP instead of ripping your hair out get your daughter to engage with your mother more and vice versa if possible.

Unfortunately you can do as much as you can for your daughter but as you cannot get through to her you need to use an adult who is removed slightly from your relationship dynamic but knows you both to make her appreciate you are a person with your own feelings, keep an eye on her well-being, and have words with you when necessary. I had this help as a teenager from a couple of family friends' and have also provided it as an aunt.

Also expect until your daughter leaves home for a while and has to stand on her own two feet for her to be shitty towards you. It doesn't mean she doesn't love you it just means she need to be more independent from you to show it.