Control/boundaries - the battle between an anxious parent vs defiant 14 year old

[Alvah]

I assume there is nothing that is 'normal' when it comes to teenagers, however I am struggling at the moment with a power play between being the responsible parent (setting clear boundaries) and the tornado force my of my son's mood when these boundaries squash his plans. I would really like your thoughts and opinions.

Single parent of two DS 14 & 12 and DD 10. Two youngest go to their dad at weekends, but DS 14 is refusing to go to dad for last 3 months. So I am now having to deal with weekend negotiations for the first time.

I am quite an anxious person by nature (as well as relatively quiet, introspective, calm and patient). I want to please and I like to avoid conflicts as much as possible. With a lively, sociable, streetwise, clever (defiant, angry, moody, 'I'll find a way to get what I want') 14 year old son, this is causing my nerves to completely fray.

He considers me very strict, I won't allow him to go for sleep overs (unless I know them and his friends parent phones me to tell me he is there). This is too embarrassing and leads to endless arguments (although I don't like arguments, I will not let him do whatever he wants). So he has had years of having to leave his friends who are going to sleepovers, and come home alone. (All he has to do is get them to phone me!)

I consider myself very lenient, although with certain conditions. He is allowed out until 10.30 at weekends, but have until 11 to make it home before I freak out. He has been allowed to go out during the Easter Holidays from afternoon until late (this is new! He used to always have to come home for dinner and not allowed to be out from morning until night, although all his friends are allowed, of course). When school is on he has to be home at 9.30 but has until 10 before I freak, and has to have dinner here before he goes out, expect on Friday when he has dinner out.

Bedtime at the moment I have changed from turning off wifi at 10.30 about a year ago, to becoming 11.30 gradually, to becoming his responsibility lately. Easter Holidays he has turned day to night. I am not happy about it but am choosing not to fight about that as I am just glad he is safely in the house. So I would consider myself lenient and flexible and understanding of his needs.... am I?

Last two weeks however, we had an argument, he told me to shut up and so I logged him out of Netflix. When he came home he freaked at me and punched his walls and called be every horrible name under the sun. The next day he went out at lunchtime and announced by text he would be staying at a friends that night for a sleepover (it would be best for the both of us). Last time he threatened to do this I said I would phone the police if he didn't come home + phone round all his friends parents. He came home with his tail between his legs. This time he text me and asked for me to please trust him on this one, I said I don't even know where you are, so he eventually told me. I didn't know what to do, on the one hand he was communicating on the other he was still breaking my rules. I didn't want him to get away with it. But somehow I felt I shouldn't fight this one just now. He ended up coming home on his own accord at 10.30. I was so glad to see him I forgot to be angry.

Last night he asked if he could stay at a friends house, I know who they are but don't have contact details. I said 'if his mum texts/phones me and tells me you are there'. After lots of arguments over text I got a text on my DS' phone 'apparently' from his friends dad. I don't believe it was him for a minute. Later he said 'stop worrying mum, I can look after myself, just trust me on this one, I love you - I'll be home in the morning'.

It is now morning. I have hardly slept. I had a nightmare he and his friends had dumped a body in the river, my son saying that 'if they don't find out we'll get away with it!' My stomach has been churning and I have been in tears. I feel awful. I feel he is slipping out of my grasp, and I don't known what to do about it. Punishing him seems to make things worse. Talking to him calmly seems to work much better, but he still just pushes and pushes the boundaries. I am getting so anxious that I don't know when I am over reacting and when I need to DO something.

Sorry for it to be so long. Just needed to get this off my chest :(

Math has described pretty much what I expect ds to do after school, muck in and do light housework, cooking, sports after school to keep him busy and tired (always a bonus!) no job as yet but he's desperate to work and so is applying when he sees something suitable. He can earn extra money by washing the car,garden work etc. I don't know anyone who doesn't expect their children to help out at home, that's just family life. Teenage boys in particular need lots of direction and lots of outlets within which to get rid of all their raging hormones and testosterone ime, sports or something like scouts.

And the fact you don't think a 14 year old should help out a bit more as his mum is doing a degree is worrying. Helping out family members is what a family is all about, it's what makes us into compassionate, helpful members of society.

I'm not really sure why you posted, it certainly does seem like everything falls on deaf ears.

Good luck

I think as I said earlier that mobiles and credit and pocket money are fair targets if teens won't cooperate. For me, it is a case of you work with me and I'll work with you. Food and love is a free gift in this house but goods and Xbox etc are not. Neither are hours on Facebook.

Alvah my youngest is also 14 and was really tricky last year. Not drugs, but really really tricky. So I know how it feels to have a difficult child to deal with.

Personally I found that expecting more not less from him was hard at first, but paid off. When they know you consistently mean it they stop messing about. And also, a good chunk of responsibility at home teaches skills like completing properly and stickability and teamwork, that they then carry into school. My children always had tasks but youngest made a big deal of his and worked hard to do less and be asked less often.In our case his siblings stopped moaning about him after I tackled that, as he did his fair share, and that raised his self respect.

I'd say now that it is much easier to be hard and then praise results than to give in and negotiate over everything.

Being firm about this stuff at home did in our case lead to good improvement at home. And also at school, though there is some way to go in terms of results.

Hobbies have helped too, though not sport - and he loves them now but 18 months ago I would never have thought I could get him there.

Lastly, in my case the boundaries I failed to police with their dad in the past contributed to his issues, as I must have been similarly weak with my son. Yes, I got cross, so I looked firm to myself, but I gave in too easily or evaded a fight. Actually I did fear the confrontation. I still am weak occasionally, but less these days, as things can slip back quickly.

How would you deal with a child who simply refuses to help, when you already don't give them pocket money? How do you manage with cutting off a phone contract if the child then responds to that by going out to god knows were, and making sure they can't be contacted by phone?

We stopped dd's pocket money, so she stole my contactless debit card and went to get her nails done. :-(

She is now making noises about shop lifting because we won't give her money to buy what she wants. She takes small change from around the house. She cadges junk food and cigarettes from friends who have money. I'm genuinely scared about what she'll do to get money if we don't give it to her. I think most people don't worry about this because they think their child has a limit to how self-destructive they are prepared to be. I don't know what my dd's limits are. I'm not sure she has limits.

What ever we do, she goes one step further. It's like living in a war zone. Her school long ago stopped escalating disciplinary issues with dd relating to punctuality, homework and attending detentions, because they were aware of how far she was prepared to take it. She would have ended up being excluded. The bar is set pretty low at school now - she turns up (at some point) and doesn't disrupt lessons, is about all they are hoping for now.

I find some posters a bit patronising
My DD is similar , not in sense of drugs or curfews.She rarely if ever, goes out on a school night and at weekends usually has friends here or goes to friends ( yes i check!). Has the occasional party/cinema/dinner out.
However I agree children are individuals not one size fits all. DD was a model student till puberty( always struggled but was polite) . I didn't change my parenting but school is a nightmare she is defiant, argumentative and incredibly anxious. Teachers that are warm towards her get her better side but she does not respond to belittling or goading .

A few years ago I would have been amazed at what my dc's teen years brought to us. I was a judgy parent who assumed the teens who went 'off the rails ' or got to trouble were a product of their upbringing.
If I only had my DD I know I would still be a smug parent who got it all right. She's been a lovely teen.

However I have learnt that raising teens is a massive exercise in humility. You cannot always 'control' them. How would you stop a 16 year old going to a rave with 20 mates? Lock him in the house from the minute he wakes up ?
Better he learns to be honest with his parents about his plans so we can have open and frank talks about the dangers of drugs/ drunk people/ the necessity to call an ambulance on an ill friend/ keeping safe etc etc . I could have forbidden him to go. He may have sneaked out anyway. He may have stayed in, with a smouldering resentment knowing that on the next occasion he is better off not telling his parents his plans. Punishing him after the event for going would not have made him safer on the night.

It is so simplistic to suggest cutting pocket money will control teen behaviour. DS had no allowance for 6 months. He still smoked weed. Friends share, grow it, steal and deal. Friends may have generous allowances, Saturday jobs. If only it were as simple as cancel the phone and pocket money!
I honestly take no credit for how my lovely 16 year old DD is, and I do not blame myself for the issues DS had.

Mathan - you are implying that your great parenting has resulted in how your DC's are. This just doesn't sit well with me. I tried to get DS into sports. He simply fought all the way to give stuff up. Friends who know DH and me would say we are great parents who are doing everything right. It was always DS's choice to use drugs, despite all the messages from home. You cannot look at every problem teen and point to the parents' inadequate parenting skills.

FWIW - those of us raising teens in London often have a tough job. They do seem to grow up quicker here. Drugs are rife in school from year 8/9. Peer pressure is huge.

I can't only say that when I lost it I got nowhere and when I did little I got nowhere. I started to put a structure of rules in place about losing things on a day by day basis. He said he didn't care, but he evidently did, as he nagged to get them back. Actually at first he marched off to his mates, as he was determined to best me. But sooner or later (maybe three times?) he ran out of steam before I did- I didn't shift so he had to. I also took him to a play of the year 11s, which really impressed him, then to my amazement he agreed to be enrolled in a dance class.

I don't have all the answers. And I most definitely don't want to patronise anyone; I've made too many mistakes of my own. But that's what worked for us, and I would have doubted it initially, because I had tried it but inconsistently.

I have to say I wouldn't pay a penny out where I suspected it was being spent on drugs.

Also it might be different with 14 year and and 16.

Alvah, they have really blossomed because of the sense of competence that being entrusted with household tasks and cooking brings, and they feel part of a team. They do not pity themselves much at this point for having responsibilities (though there was a lot of that in the beginning) and I do not pity them for that either. There are many pluses to it.

They have learned to appreciate the way their contribution to the home makes time for all of us to spend time together. They like the fact that having a nice clean home means their friends feel comfortable here. It really does help with their outlook towards school and homework and so does having to earn their spending money. They know how much work you do for minimum wage or less, and it has made them more conscious of what an opportunity school is. Plus they have learned to be on time and do what other grown ups want them to do. When I do not have a long list of chores to get around to we can go out and do something enjoyable together like a swim or a walk along the shore, or a trip to get an ice cream some evening, or to browse around the shops. Or we can do something like popcorn and a film as mentioned, or getting their nails done, which they like a lot.

Teenage years are about learning to be independent and what 'independent' looks like to me is being able to take care of yourself and accept responsibility. Not out with friends doing god knows what until all hours of the evening while somebody else takes care of mundane tasks after putting in their own day's work.

Personally I found that expecting more not less from him was hard at first, but paid off -- I found that too, Greenrememberedhills.

Getting them all accustomed to chores and making an honest contribution took much time and frustration and persistent reminding and encouragement on my part. There were many times I thought it would be so much easier to just do the job myself, and of course it would have been, but what use is that to anyone in the long run? What does that teach them? That if you dig in your heels and refuse, mum will eventually cave.

I'd say now that it is much easier to be hard and then praise results than to give in and negotiate over everything. I agree.
Expecting more rather than accepting less is important.

I have five DCs and though three are either independent or at university at this point, when I started all of this after exH mercifully moved out, they were 16, 13, 11, 8 and 5. I could not compete with exH's approach which was to yell and threaten and physically intimidate, nor did I want to. Maybe it is easier to just do it all yourself if your family is smaller, but managing the house and the garden and a job would have put me in a hole in the ground unless I had fought very doggedly for the co-operation of the DCs.

I feel looking back that I just got my hands on DS in time. I was able to get him into football and wrestling on top of expecting him to chip in at home thanks to the cajoling of the parents of one of his friends. Sport provided a team for him, his little tribe of motivated boys, and parents who cared enough to take on and share the chore of getting boys to 5.30 am practices, whom I got to know via carpooling, and a decent group of coaches who provided better models of male authority for him than exH had but made them work til they almost dropped all the same.

Being sorry for my DCs for their exposure to the lazy and wrong approach of exH (because physical intimidation is very lazy parenting imo), and sympathetic about their poor relationship with him was necessary and good. We did plenty of talking and listening.

But playing good cop to exH's bad cop was not an option. They needed structure and expectations and to know they were accountable to me even though I did not yell or threaten or have the capacity to physically subdue anyone. Otherwise I would have been trampled over and they would have been lost to the big city temptations that are a feature of where I live.

The metropolitan area here has a major gang and drugs problem, and teens can get into trouble with no bother. Students are led out in handcuffs from their school every month for possession or distribution of drugs, and this is the tip of the iceberg. There are many cool and hip parents who think it is a good idea to provide weed and alcohol to enhance parties. Drugs and drink are available everywhere, even in the remotest of little villages and country towns. The OP lives in a small town.

Like Greenhillsremembered, I do not have all the answers and what I am posting here is what worked for me, but I don't think the locality is the deciding factor in how fast kids grow up.

Maths 5.30?

You're way out of my parenting league. I have to take the router cable to bed!

Math - I appreciate your sharing your experiences, I can see better where you are coming from now. I will read it properly in the morning and soak up some more of your ideas and wisdom

It might seem as if the advice has fallen on deaf ears, but it has not.

Tightening up of rules and expectations has already begun. We have had a lovely weekend, only one swear word was uttered, and that was in relation to dad. I have a lot of work to do to get us onto a better track, but I feel much stronger now.

Greenhills, I hated the wrestling years more than I can ever express.

Another thought Alvah- in terms of alternative activities, I think these children more than others need activities which are different from their siblings, as they fear competition deep down- especially if siblings are doing well.

Sport is great, but my particular youngest hates it. Creative ideas include film making,editing, boxing, dance, drama. One local provided I heard of even teaches driving and tractor driving, which sounds fun. Also martial arts.

"What does that teach them? That if you dig in your heels and refuse, mum will eventually cave"

So what happens when a child consistently refuses to

• take part in any and all organised activities
• help out at home
• do their school work
• leave the house on time for school

... when when reasoned discussion, encouragement and rewards have failed, you have exhausted all sanctions (phone, pocket money)?

What happens next?

For 4 years nearly my dd has refused to comply with any and all requests or commands to do the above.

"Otherwise I would have been trampled over and they would have been lost to the big city temptations that are a feature of where I live."

Do your children attend state schools?

Beloved - I know sports etc are good for teens but there is no way I can get DS to any form of extra curricular/ sport/ hobbies. He started dropping everything at 13 and now at 17 he has no interests at all. And I've certainly tried!

All I say is he knows he had the opportunities so he can't look back and blame anyone but himself.

Before that point I think I would have tried therapy or a psychiatric evaluation, based on the suspicion that there was some underlying issue like depression or an emotional disorder at play. There would also be no more basic services like laundry.

I would be very inclined to do whatever it took to personally escort the child to school, even as far as their classroom for their first class.

*Yes they do, in answer to your question. It's a very naice area but there are far too many children with nobody at home for long stretches but 'Maria' or 'Joanna', and too many hip parents who think they are the coolest thing ever. Plus not too far away is a very gritty urban patch where there is a flourishing open air drug market. I could get there in fifteen minutes on foot.

"Before that point I think I would have tried therapy or a psychiatric evaluation, based on the suspicion that there was some underlying issue like depression or an emotional disorder at play."

Had that.

She was referred to adolescent mental health services and saw a senior psychologist twice, and we had a course of family therapy. She has never been diagnosed with anything, accept very recently she has been diagnosed with depression. TBH her relationships with her family and teachers have been so poor for two years, and her lifestyle so aimless it would be amazing if she wasn't depressed.

"There would also be no more basic services like laundry."

She wouldn't care.

"I would be very inclined to do whatever it took to personally escort the child to school, even as far as their classroom for their first class."

She's 15 and weighs 12 stone. I can't get her out of bed, let alone get her in the car without her co-operation, which she won't give. On one occasion I managed to get her in the car and as far as the school gate, at which point she did a runner off down the high street and disappeared.

"Plus not too far away is a very gritty urban patch where there is a flourishing open air drug market"

That's irrelevant if your children don't mix with this group of kids.

My dd's three closest friends all come from families where father/brothers have been convicted of criminal offences.

The point I wanted to make Math is that there are some parents like me out there dealing with challenges other parents can't even begin to get their heads around. Your comment about accompanying your child to class, and about not washing their sheets if they won't do chores shows how far apart we are in what we have had to deal with as parents. You communicate a very strong belief that you can make things happen, if you just approach it in the right way, say the right things, develop the right sort of relationship with your teen. From what I remember from your other posts you are an experienced and successful lawyer. I suspect you find it hard to believe that there are teens out there who can't be managed effectively, but I assure you, there are.

Beloved your DD sounds identical to mine I have just written a help me post
I don't like the patronising tone from some posters children are individuals there is no way my DD would care what i sanctioned or stopped doing for her. My DD won't even engage with CAMHS and its hard to make anyone go anywhere they refuse. At my height carrying her is not an option!

Will nip over to your thread then!

My children don't mix with those kids because they know there would be grave consequences if they did.

I do hope you can get a proper diagnosis of your DD's problem. I would seek a referral to a psychiatrist. You seem to be dealing with an extraordinarily tough nut to crack. At 16 your DD will have aged out of a lot of LA services afaik.

The experience you are having with your DD is quite far removed from what most parents are dealing with, I will venture to say. What I am saying about my experience will possibly be applicable to the majority of situations.

I do not stop laundry -- they wash their own sheets anyway. There are short and realistic consequences for not doing what they are supposed to do, beginning with a reprimand and reminder.

I am not a lawyer (exH is though).

Accompanying a teen to class! Wow that would NOT help relations with my teens even it were remotely possible !
DS gets stressed out when I have to go onto school premises to meet a teacher in case his mates see me.

"grave consequences" for mixing with "those" kids from a "grubby" area you sound lovely. I'm sure they aren't all drug addict criminals !

My kids are not in private school and their state school is not an especially "good" one. There is no other state school in town, anyway.

My DS did refuse school for a whole week in year 7, two years ago. It was horrible and yes, you can't carry them!

What worked for me was to call the school and actually ask for the education welfare officer to attend,as I felt at a loss, so he shot off back in the next day, in alarm. The school were pretty surprised as well, as the EWA normally only attends longer term refusers. Anyway, they weren't needed in the end

He has tried refusing twice since, both last year, so I immediately called the year head. He hasn't done it since, so here is hoping.

If that's patronising to the OP I'm happy to stop posting.