Control/boundaries - the battle between an anxious parent vs defiant 14 year old

[Alvah]

I assume there is nothing that is 'normal' when it comes to teenagers, however I am struggling at the moment with a power play between being the responsible parent (setting clear boundaries) and the tornado force my of my son's mood when these boundaries squash his plans. I would really like your thoughts and opinions.

Single parent of two DS 14 & 12 and DD 10. Two youngest go to their dad at weekends, but DS 14 is refusing to go to dad for last 3 months. So I am now having to deal with weekend negotiations for the first time.

I am quite an anxious person by nature (as well as relatively quiet, introspective, calm and patient). I want to please and I like to avoid conflicts as much as possible. With a lively, sociable, streetwise, clever (defiant, angry, moody, 'I'll find a way to get what I want') 14 year old son, this is causing my nerves to completely fray.

He considers me very strict, I won't allow him to go for sleep overs (unless I know them and his friends parent phones me to tell me he is there). This is too embarrassing and leads to endless arguments (although I don't like arguments, I will not let him do whatever he wants). So he has had years of having to leave his friends who are going to sleepovers, and come home alone. (All he has to do is get them to phone me!)

I consider myself very lenient, although with certain conditions. He is allowed out until 10.30 at weekends, but have until 11 to make it home before I freak out. He has been allowed to go out during the Easter Holidays from afternoon until late (this is new! He used to always have to come home for dinner and not allowed to be out from morning until night, although all his friends are allowed, of course). When school is on he has to be home at 9.30 but has until 10 before I freak, and has to have dinner here before he goes out, expect on Friday when he has dinner out.

Bedtime at the moment I have changed from turning off wifi at 10.30 about a year ago, to becoming 11.30 gradually, to becoming his responsibility lately. Easter Holidays he has turned day to night. I am not happy about it but am choosing not to fight about that as I am just glad he is safely in the house. So I would consider myself lenient and flexible and understanding of his needs.... am I?

Last two weeks however, we had an argument, he told me to shut up and so I logged him out of Netflix. When he came home he freaked at me and punched his walls and called be every horrible name under the sun. The next day he went out at lunchtime and announced by text he would be staying at a friends that night for a sleepover (it would be best for the both of us). Last time he threatened to do this I said I would phone the police if he didn't come home + phone round all his friends parents. He came home with his tail between his legs. This time he text me and asked for me to please trust him on this one, I said I don't even know where you are, so he eventually told me. I didn't know what to do, on the one hand he was communicating on the other he was still breaking my rules. I didn't want him to get away with it. But somehow I felt I shouldn't fight this one just now. He ended up coming home on his own accord at 10.30. I was so glad to see him I forgot to be angry.

Last night he asked if he could stay at a friends house, I know who they are but don't have contact details. I said 'if his mum texts/phones me and tells me you are there'. After lots of arguments over text I got a text on my DS' phone 'apparently' from his friends dad. I don't believe it was him for a minute. Later he said 'stop worrying mum, I can look after myself, just trust me on this one, I love you - I'll be home in the morning'.

It is now morning. I have hardly slept. I had a nightmare he and his friends had dumped a body in the river, my son saying that 'if they don't find out we'll get away with it!' My stomach has been churning and I have been in tears. I feel awful. I feel he is slipping out of my grasp, and I don't known what to do about it. Punishing him seems to make things worse. Talking to him calmly seems to work much better, but he still just pushes and pushes the boundaries. I am getting so anxious that I don't know when I am over reacting and when I need to DO something.

Sorry for it to be so long. Just needed to get this off my chest :(

Thanks, Hermia. Yes good advice on the phone and I will look up on the recommended books too

Hermia is right,that's what I have done with the phone. Explain when things are calm.

We have Virgin sim only contracts and they are in my name and I can log on and see how much internet he has used, texts etc. I can also block it if I so wish.

Can't remember if I mentioned it previously but the phone must be left on the landing before bed, if I find out he has sneaked it into his room the. It gets taken away the next day.

Funnily enough I was trying to get him to help me with the gardening earlier and he was reluctant, I jokingly threatened to change the password on the wifi and he said ' knock yourself out mum, you techno whizz , it'll take you until next week to work out how to do it!!'

He got quite a shock when he realised I could do it his dad did it!

Just don't do it all the same, Alvah.

When you start instituting a new set of rules and consequences, you need to do it at a time when both of you are calm and not in the heat of the moment. Telling him in the heat of the moment that you will take his phone if he does X or Y is going to be seen as a challenge he cannot duck without losing massive face, and he is going to leave and 'show you who is in charge'. Sit down together and decide what the reasonable rules are and what the consequences are, and tell him what the concerns are that are leading to the rules. He can disagree with the concerns and probably will. He can and will disagree with the rules and insist that everyone else is allowed to do far more, far later, etc. However, you can hold out the carrot to him of gradual easing of the rules as he gets older and demonstrates good judgement in school and as to choice of friends. You can give him feedback occasionally when you think he is making progress.

I agree with all of Hermia's points here.

Fwiw, I have huge sympathy with you for the experience you hint at from a few years ago with your exH. I think there is a long journey out of that sort of situation, with various milestones to pass before you can say you are out of the woods, and quite often you need to find a counsellor to keep you going forward. When children have been damaged it makes it so much more complicated as you have to be able to support them as well as keeping on moving forward yourself.

There seems to be a tendency on threads like this to assume that all teens are similar and it is the way they are parented that causes the problems.

My DS behaved in a way that seems similar to OP's DS from the sounds of her posts. From age 13/14 he started going out to play football in the park with mates on a Saturday. Nothing wrong with that I'm sure people would say. How nice that he's getting fresh air and doing what boys should be doing. Over time he'd start staying out longer, keeping in touch by text, maybe saying I'm going to pizza at X's house, I'll be home by 7 pm. After a few months of that, and some trust building as he always came home safely and kept in touch by text, it would be I'll be home at 8, we are watching a movie. And so on. Before you know it you have a 14 year old who is out ALOT ! but it doesn't happen overnight and there have never been any apparent problems. Then one day you discover they have been smoking weed for a year. They have a large group of friends who you don't know. You can't lock them up, all you can do is try to educate and communicate, and keep your fingers crossed.
Fleur and Mathan - perhaps your teens are just different - you say they ask to be picked up from a party where they felt uncomfortable ? OP and I have DS's who would perhaps NOT feel uncomfortable in those situations , they instead are attracted to the 'gritty side of life ' as OP puts it. I have always told my DS I would collect him anytime / anywhere and he looks at me baffled, saying that would never happen.

When it became clear to us that DS (15) was going out and about as he pleased, not giving us full details we basically had to change our approach and say to him that we knew we couldn't stop him going to places ( raves for instance ) but the golden rule was now that there was to be no lying, we had to know where he was, and keep in touch by phone. So after GCSE's when a massive group were going to an illegal rave miles from home, he asked if he could go, and he said most of his mates would lie to their parents about their plans in case they were forbidden to go. I did not want him to go, but I did not want to penalise him for his honesty. So he went. At least I could give him emergency taxi money and send a few more texts than usual. It was a horrendous event ( the Croydon rave where a boy lost his life to drugs ) and has hopefully put him off illegal raves !

OP - if it's any consolation my DS had a lot of early freedoms but at 17 he is choosing to stay in at night and focus on his studies. All will change after the exams but he does have his priorities straight. I wish I could give you better advice but it was not a period of parenting I found easy at all. Just try to set a few clear boundaries and stick to them, and try to be consistent.

FWIW - I hate the mumsnet thing of 'cancel the phone '. We are trying to keep our teens safe ultimately. The phone is essential if they are out and about. I did cancel DS 's phone once, and after literally a few minutes I reactivated it as the realisation that he was completely out of contact sunk in. My teens have always been brilliant at responding to my texts when they are out. If they don't reply within 20 minutes or so I would have cause to panic.
I don't consider myself to be a liberal parent, but I just don't think 'punishments ' like this work for teenagers.

Claybury- did you continue to pay pocket money when he defied you like that? I wouldn't have.

I agree with Hermes approach too. My kids are a range of ages from 14-35, and I remember when they didn't have phones. They do not actually need them. Kids have got through millennia without.

My DS2 keeps his phone because he does his work and gets up and takes responsibility. He did at 14. The youngest can't be trusted at 14 not to surf the net all night, need levering out of bed and then not be able to concentrate at school. so I do take it at 10pm. He can't be trusted not to switch the wifi on either, so if he does I remove the lot for 24 hours.

I completely agree that laptops wifi, lifts and money etc are privileges. The deal on privileges is two way, as it is in real life.

If I got to the point of cancelling the phone contract my boy wouldn't be going anywhere but school anyway as he'd be grounded and therefore problem solved as to contact. I'd probably give him my old Nokia if he had to have a phone.

I cannot imagine me ever saying to a fifteen year old that I couldn't stop him going to a rave! Damn straight I could stop him, he's 15 not 18 how is he getting money for weed and raves?

Claybury I worked very hard to get the DCs to the point where they were willing to call me. It started when they were young and understood they could trust me to deal with whatever life threw at me. The DCs did not magically turn into teens who one night decided to call their mother from a party. They are not 'just different'.

It was the result of a conscious intention on my part to have strong lines of communication that were always open. And while I know the occasions when they decided to call I do not necessarily know much about occasions when they decided not to call.

They have also been my captive audience since they were very young and I could make hints and remarks and the odd comment on behaviour I thought was problematic that I saw their classmates getting involved in. I did not preach or go on and on. Just the odd remark, with a tone of regret and sorrow about the kids who seemed to be going off the rails, with no anger or trace of fear, just a shake of my head and a 'dear me, what a shame, that is quite a hole s/he has dug him/herself into...' and also 'what a shame their parents do not seem to understand the dangerous situation he/she was getting into.'

All of that has been accompanied by much talk of their own future plans and a lot of friendly conversation where I dropped the odd hint about staying clear of certain behaviour. I also got them involved in sports and made them work hard in school, choose subjects that came with homework and were challenging to them, etc. Plus they had tasks around the house including making dinner once or twice a week and doing their own laundry. They did not go out at night on weeknights partly because there is a limited number of hours to each day.

I never gave any of them pocket money. If they wanted money to spend they had to go and find themselves some sort of work. They all babysat and additionally DS found a gig doing odd jobs on Saturday mornings for elderly people. When they had to work for their money wiping other people's children's bottoms and scraping and painting people's fences they were less inclined to spend it on fripperies, and so they avoided the pressure to do so that would have come from hanging out with teens who had a lot to spend that they got for nothing more than making it alive to the end of another week. Plus earning their own money gave them a feeling of moving on from childhood and a taste of what they could look forward to in adulthood and they learned to show up, do what was required and be polite to adults.

I have taken the phone away for a day on two occasions, and I knew where the offenders were both times when they didn't have the phones -- school and home. They need the phone only if they are out a lot. They miss it at home because they can't keep in touch with friends and they feel the isolation.

Cancelling it altogether would be completely unrealistic but substituting a cheap one is always an option. One day's loss of phone privileges is the first level of consequences, leading up to two days, etc. On both occasions the phone was forfeit for the day because they did not answer my call or text when they were out. This reminded them that the phone is primarily to use to keep in touch with me.

they learned to show up, do what was required and be polite to adults and they could see that school wasn't the only place where this was a requirement.

Claybury - I agree with you that teens are different. We have to work with our children the way they are and do our very best. I can understand your decision to change tactics, and focus on honesty and openness to keep him safe.

One approach does not fit all, also parents have different temperaments and how these relationships work together is different in each family depending on history and experiences etc. Many parents on this thread may never know what it is like to parent a 'wild' child, and will offer advice based on their own experiences, which may or may not be helpful for others.

Hermia - My attitude to him getting warnings at school last year was to get frustrated and annoyed that he gets into trouble or disrupted class. I find it embarrassing and tell him the best thing he can do is to wind his neck in. I have never phoned school and asked for the reason for his warnings, although I know many parents do, and they have warnings taken off their child's record. My priority is not the number of warnings that he gets, but rather that he finds a way to manage his behaviour in class.

However on the other hand at this age they are also sensitive about how they are perceived and to be continually criticised in class is quite depressing (even if they have been cheeky). My son dramatically improved his behaviour but still said that the teacher's disliked him or blamed him. I said give it time, they have to have the chance to get to know the 'new' you. After a while they wonder what is the point - everybody always expects the worst from me.

I am very sympathetic to the cross examination experienced by teachers, it is hard enough as a parent, and that is only a one to one. They are very smart and quick and can probably turn the whole situation on its head. However teacher's must also show respect and be polite to pupils. Some teens are not going to buy the 'You must automatically respect me because I am an adult/teacher'. If the adult/teacher behaves disrespectfully towards the pupil, chances are the respect will not flow either way.

My son has teachers/deputy heads that he gets on with really well. He feels that like, respect and understand him, and he thrives on this. He has teachers he does NOT get on with too; and this is where the behavioural issues lie as it eats away at his self-esteem and a vicious circle of dislike and disrespect starts.

He will never get on with every teacher, no child ever does. In the work place it's rare to get on with every one in the office but part of being mature is just keeping your head down and getting on with things.

I agree about not getting into conversations about who said what and what's fair/unfair at school.

OP, one thing that stands out from reading your posts is that you make many excuses for your son's behaviour-he doesn't like to be criticised in class, he's wild, he needs to be handled gently etc.

Imo this needs to stop or you won't get anywhere.

I agree with DameDiazepam, you are making a lot of excuses here, including the one that your DS is different in a significant way from others (and by implication that some parents have an easier time of it).

I also agree that children need to know that not every teacher is going to like you or show signs of liking you, and getting on with work is necessary. Children are not working for the teacher. They are working for themselves. It is nice if a child and a teacher can establish some sort of rapport but it is a bonus, an optional extra. Work is what comes first and work is what he needs to focus on.

And the only talk of what is 'fair' that should be done with your son is impressing upon him that it is absolutely unfair of him to get in the way of other children's learning by disrupting the class even for two minutes with arguments or comments or whatever it is that he is doing. A child needs to respect the work of the teacher and his fellow students' right to learn.

No 14 year old student is the equal of the teacher except in very general terms of being citizens with equal human and civil rights. If you have somehow conveyed to your son your opinion that 'teachers must also show respect and be polite to pupils' then you are contributing to the problem here.

Some teens are not going to buy the 'You must automatically respect me because I am an adult/teacher'. If the adult/teacher behaves disrespectfully towards the pupil, chances are the respect will not flow either way.
In my observation it is only those students who have problems with authority stemming from parenting styles they experience at home who seek in school a solid object to butt heads with or the sort of negative attention they are used to (from an authoritarian father for instance) or who think they are involved in some sort of negotiation relationship with teachers where they have a status equal to that of the teacher (the experience they have with their mother, for instance).

Children who have never experienced real authority in their homes do not know what to do with teachers and can only fall back on what is familiar -- seeking negative attention and expecting special treatment or negotiation, and also being preoccupied with where they stand in relation to the teacher just as they have no solid idea of where they stand in relation to their parents; do they love me or fear me? (Hence statements such as 'the teacher doesn't like me' or 'he has it in for me', and taking umbrage if teachers show signs of 'disrespecting' the 14 year old..)

What you have written about teachers behaving disrespectfully sounds like a rap lyric.

Your DS's problematic behaviour in school stems directly from his father being too harsh and you being too soft and afraid of confrontation. Both of those styles are based in fear -- fear of someone else (the child) taking away power and control. The loser in this situation is the child who needs to see confident parents who are not afraid of him. Both you and his father are afraid of the DS. It is terrifying for a child and also for a teen to experience that sort of weakness on the part of a parent.

DameDiazepam - What I am doing in regards to 'excusing' his behaviour, is actually 'understanding' where he is coming from. I am realising what works for him as a person and which situations issues arise in.

I am not saying to DS: 'You are a sensitive boy whose self-esteem has been knocked in early childhood and so your teachers should treat you with special consideration'.

To him, as I have mentioned before, I make it clear that he needs to wind his neck in. Consequences have been put in place if he gets in trouble at school and the ongoing conversation is 'what could you do differently next time', in order to avoid this happening again.

In my mind I know my child's triggers and his emotional sensitivities. Therefore I can see that being spoken to disrespectfully and taken the 'mickey out of' at school by teachers, is something that he reacts strongly to. And to be honest I think it is a basic expectation that pupils as well as adults deserve to be treated with respect.

By talking about something that happened at school that frustrates him, is in my eyes a good thing, not for excusing his behaviour but for opening up discussion about why he got in trouble. You won't ever hear me speaking badly of the teachers, but I will ask him why he think they said/did that?

Mathanxiety - My child is different. And so are every one of yours, and everyone else's children. Children are not merely formed by the experiences they encounter as they grow up (as in authoritarian father and allowing mother), they come with personalities, traits and temperaments that have been developed and passed down their ancestry line for centuries. Every child's DNA will express itself in it's own way and this formulation will then react to the environment they grow up in.

You cannot just place every child in a box and treat them all the same, or you can but it is not going to be healthy for them.

Similarly, parenting styles are also formed and developed not only from the experiences of the parent's childhood and personality, but also be affected by how the child's and the parent's personalities interact. We all bring some baggage with us into our relationships.

The opinion of 'pupils/children also deserve to be treated with respect' is within him, a belief that I believe is part of his personality. And like you point to in his experience with his father, he has probably developed a strong sense of injustice in the way that he was treated, this being 'allowed' simply because his father was the adult and he the child. And yes I have probably overcompensated with the soft touch because I could see how it was destroying him to be 'trapped' in such a relationship with his father.

It is an aged 'social construct', this adult/child power imbalance, which as led to and allowed an awful lot of abuse and mis-use of power by adults in authority positions towards children in the past. Children are not just little people to be told what to do, what to think and how to behave. Adults are often afraid of giving children more 'power' because they think this will be mis-used and all hell will break loose. This is a fear based approach, and research has shown the opposite, that young people respond very positively when given more of a say in matters that affect them.

Children need to be seen and heard, and treated as individuals. They need guidance and boundaries which are suitable for who they are, not who we want them to be. We do not own them or have the right to tell them who they should be. All we can do is, based on our very best knowledge, capacities and experiences, nurture the best in them and then let them go into the world.

I can see how it seems 'too soft' (and maybe madness), not to just 'imprint' in my child that he must conform and fit in the box of what we expect of them. But I believe that if my son had been treated with 'authoritarian' parenting from both sides, I would have had much more serious issues on my hands than I have now. As a young child he struggled with authority, and believe me I started out with and upheld strict rules and expectations. Like I had been brought up. But I soon found out that with him, it didn't work. He had a different personality and he needed something else. He is in no way 'spoilt' with things/money etc. and he doesn't ask for much, except freedom. Freedom to be himself, to find his way around the world, to explore, to measure his own strength, to grow into the man he is going to be one day. He is very hungry for that freedom and responsibility. I believe that if I had not been aware of his individual emotional and psychological needs, our relationship would be broken down a long time ago.

So this is why I am 'soft', this is why my leash is flexible, this is why I listen to what he feels/thinks. Because I believe, based on my own experience and knowledge, that this is what is right for him.

And Mathanxiety, I can see why we may disagree on some issues. To have your children at school all day, working hard and conscientiously, (which equals to adults working full time) then come home to cook dinner and do different tasks, and having to do their own laundry. To get no pocket money and also not have any time to go out and socialise, because there aren't any more hours left in the day.... I am almost lost for words.

Hermia - I posted on here because I was struggling and felt in trouble as a parent.

Surely the process of discussing the situation, exploring different view points and approaches, is the main point of posting on here.

The point is not to necessarily end up agreeing with everyone but to work out what is right for each one of us?

All the comments, advice and opinions on this thread have been really useful and I appreciate the wisdom shared. It has allowed me to examine my self, my parenting, my attitudes and approaches against other voices and experiences.

I am really grateful for you guys helping me through this process. I feel stronger and more determined as a result. So thank you all

"In my observation it is only those students who have problems with authority stemming from parenting styles they experience at home who seek in school a solid object to butt heads with or the sort of negative attention they are used to (from an authoritarian father for instance)"

My dd has 'butted heads' with teachers constantly since year 8.

I'm not sure how my 'parenting style' changed as she entered adolescence because prior to this she was a model student and DH and I thought our expectations and boundaries were reasonable and similar to that of parents of other teens we know. Apparently not.

We started off with what we thought were sensible boundaries, but now we appear to have almost none as they have been trampled down over and over again by dd, and appear to have lost all meaning.

Nobody has ever been able to help me and DH work out how best to respond when a teenager is consistently, bloody mindedly non-compliant and unresponsive to all reasonable requests (ie, please go to school, get there on time, be polite to teachers, do your homework) and expectations (let us know where you are, help out a bit at home, to not kick off massively every time someone says 'no').

The hardest part of the whole sorry trip over the past 4 years has been the judgement of other people - people like MathAnxiety, who have an explanation for behaviour at school and at home which places the blame firmly at our feet. We are clearly either too authoritarian, or not authoritarian enough, or both. We set inappropriate boundaries, or none at all.

OP - I have no advice, other than to say that I'm sorry for you. I think your situation is very difficult. If it's any comfort, I am a qualified teacher and have a solid marriage with a kind and thoughtful man who is with me every inch of the way as a parent, but I've also found myself not knowing what to do or how to respond to the challenges of my dd's adolescence.

Sorry - wanted also to say, that the one thing I massively regret has been that I have said too much about how her behaviour has made me feel, and this has made me look weak to her. It doesn't help that at one point I developed a clinical depression from the stress of it all*, and that she has used this fact against me over and over again. If I had to do it all again (though I'd rather saw my own head off than to have to relive the last four years) I'd focus very strongly on protecting myself and trying not to show my vulnerabilities. No tears. No shouting. No showing that you are at the end of your tether, even if you are.

Beloved you cannot make them work. But you can ensure they are not rewarded for refusing.

I can't for the life of me see why it is fine for you OP to be doing finals and working and raising a family but shocking to expect help at home from your 14 year old.

"Beloved you cannot make them work. But you can ensure they are not rewarded for refusing."

Rewarded how?

Beloved72 - Thank you for your comment. It is comforting to hear yes and helpful to hear your opinion and experience on the matter.

I am sorry to hear that you have had a hard time also. And I take to heart your advice, and that of others on this thread about not showing them that we are at the end of our tether.

Hope you guys are 'through it' now?

Greenrememberedhills - I am not shocked at expecting help at home. I am shocked at the amount of work they are expected to do, on top of their school day; home work, household tasks, cooking, laundry - yet there is no pocket money or free time to relax with friends. On top of that they also need to get a job, if they want money to buy anything! According to the UNCRC children have a right to free time and play and to relax, as well as taking part in social activities and make friends.

My DS has his tasks at home, but I also acknowledge that DC have been 'at work' to the whole day too. And yes my DC get pocket money, because without it they would not be able to part take in a social life in their free time.

It is my choice to further my career by taking a degree. Therefore it is my responsibility, not theirs to manage the added work involved. They learn that if they work for it they will be rewarded, if they choose not to they won't.