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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Control/boundaries - the battle between an anxious parent vs defiant 14 year old

161 replies

Alvah · 11/04/2015 10:41

I assume there is nothing that is 'normal' when it comes to teenagers, however I am struggling at the moment with a power play between being the responsible parent (setting clear boundaries) and the tornado force my of my son's mood when these boundaries squash his plans. I would really like your thoughts and opinions.

Single parent of two DS 14 & 12 and DD 10. Two youngest go to their dad at weekends, but DS 14 is refusing to go to dad for last 3 months. So I am now having to deal with weekend negotiations for the first time.

I am quite an anxious person by nature (as well as relatively quiet, introspective, calm and patient). I want to please and I like to avoid conflicts as much as possible. With a lively, sociable, streetwise, clever (defiant, angry, moody, 'I'll find a way to get what I want') 14 year old son, this is causing my nerves to completely fray.

He considers me very strict, I won't allow him to go for sleep overs (unless I know them and his friends parent phones me to tell me he is there). This is too embarrassing and leads to endless arguments (although I don't like arguments, I will not let him do whatever he wants). So he has had years of having to leave his friends who are going to sleepovers, and come home alone. (All he has to do is get them to phone me!)

I consider myself very lenient, although with certain conditions. He is allowed out until 10.30 at weekends, but have until 11 to make it home before I freak out. He has been allowed to go out during the Easter Holidays from afternoon until late (this is new! He used to always have to come home for dinner and not allowed to be out from morning until night, although all his friends are allowed, of course). When school is on he has to be home at 9.30 but has until 10 before I freak, and has to have dinner here before he goes out, expect on Friday when he has dinner out.

Bedtime at the moment I have changed from turning off wifi at 10.30 about a year ago, to becoming 11.30 gradually, to becoming his responsibility lately. Easter Holidays he has turned day to night. I am not happy about it but am choosing not to fight about that as I am just glad he is safely in the house. So I would consider myself lenient and flexible and understanding of his needs.... am I?

Last two weeks however, we had an argument, he told me to shut up and so I logged him out of Netflix. When he came home he freaked at me and punched his walls and called be every horrible name under the sun. The next day he went out at lunchtime and announced by text he would be staying at a friends that night for a sleepover (it would be best for the both of us). Last time he threatened to do this I said I would phone the police if he didn't come home + phone round all his friends parents. He came home with his tail between his legs. This time he text me and asked for me to please trust him on this one, I said I don't even know where you are, so he eventually told me. I didn't know what to do, on the one hand he was communicating on the other he was still breaking my rules. I didn't want him to get away with it. But somehow I felt I shouldn't fight this one just now. He ended up coming home on his own accord at 10.30. I was so glad to see him I forgot to be angry.

Last night he asked if he could stay at a friends house, I know who they are but don't have contact details. I said 'if his mum texts/phones me and tells me you are there'. After lots of arguments over text I got a text on my DS' phone 'apparently' from his friends dad. I don't believe it was him for a minute. Later he said 'stop worrying mum, I can look after myself, just trust me on this one, I love you - I'll be home in the morning'.

It is now morning. I have hardly slept. I had a nightmare he and his friends had dumped a body in the river, my son saying that 'if they don't find out we'll get away with it!' My stomach has been churning and I have been in tears. I feel awful. I feel he is slipping out of my grasp, and I don't known what to do about it. Punishing him seems to make things worse. Talking to him calmly seems to work much better, but he still just pushes and pushes the boundaries. I am getting so anxious that I don't know when I am over reacting and when I need to DO something.

Sorry for it to be so long. Just needed to get this off my chest :(

OP posts:
Seriouslyffs · 16/04/2015 13:55

Mystery he's in year 8!
Social services and the police would be very unimpressed if the OP wasn't certain where her child was overnight. Whenever mine stay over, until about 16,
I send a text saying 'is it ok if miniseriously stays at yours tonight?' And if unplanned friends stop at ours I check their parents know they're with us.

Fleurdelise · 16/04/2015 14:06

Nobody says you should worry and you shouldn't know where they are. But I chose to trust my son that he will tell me the truth where he is at night. Nothing wrong with trusting my child, I don't think.

Due to the fact that I don't have out of the norm requests he doesn't feel the need to lie to me.

Of course you can say that I am naive. I may as well be in your eyes.

However with this approach I know that my Ds would rather tell the truth even if it means we will argue about things.

There was an instance in which I was asking Ds to do something and he was arguing against. DH asked him (after I stormed off out of the room) why wouldn't he just agree with me even if later on he could negotiate an exit out of that request. He said to my DH "well that would be lying, wouldn't it?".

So I was merely suggesting a different approach called trust as in the few occasions I checked on my son he was where he told me he would be. He didn't feel the need to lie compared with OP's DS who chose to lie knowing his mum will forbid it.

Wouldn't it have been better for OP's Ds to feel happy to ask and tell the truth knowing. That his mum trusts him? Even if it would have been a "no" this time he would have trust her judgment knowing that in the past his mum allowed him to sleepovers.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 16/04/2015 14:08

I think the boundaries you are setting are a little bit upside down.
If dd asked to sleep at a friend's house I would trust that she was where she said she would be. No phone call from parents needed. She would stay in contact throughout the night by text, and be dropped off and collected by me.

However, she does not go out with her friends without specific plans.
For example, if they were going to the cinema or for a meal. She is not allowed to just "be out" without firm plans and a specific idea of where she will be and at what time. Just "hanging around" until 11pm is totally unacceptable. Ime this is the road to underage binge drinking and God knows what else.
Last week she went into the city for a meal and I collected her at 10.30. I was fine with this.

Fleurdelise · 16/04/2015 14:16

And when does trust come into the equation? IS there a set time? 15 yo? 16 yo? At what age do you decide to trust your child?

If your child tells you that your request is embarrassing and he'd rather come home than ask the friends parents to call does it not mean that maybe you should reconsider?

Shouldn't everybody start with the presumption that their kids are good until proven this is not the case?

Of course there should be rules and boundaries. However rules are meant to be broken. The more there are the more the child is tempted to break them.

I chose to have safety rules and trust. If trust is broken the rules are tighter. I check and worry but he doesn't need to know all my worries and my doubts.

Fleurdelise · 16/04/2015 14:21

And I agree, hanging around without any plans until late at night is the worrying bit. I would wonder what he is up to as not many 14 yo are out so late.

DS is year 9 so going out with (almost) 15 yo and some are year 10 so even older and they are not on the streets until 11. By 9.30 at the weekend most of them are back home or around each other's houses for sleepovers, or at the cinema. Not on the streets.

So I would rather have my DS at a sleepover rather than out. Not knowing what "out" means.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 16/04/2015 14:43

I'm pottering around the kitchen cooking and keep coming back to this thread, if it helps OP we have a few rules set in stone and the rest we kind of wing it as we go along -

If you go out you take your phone and you are responsible for keeping it charged up - important rule as ds has a serious allergy and we feel much happier if he can call 999 easily.

You can do what you like within reason but you MUST check in first and let someone know where you will be, especially if plans change. If we find out you are somewhere where you said you wouldn't be then next time you want to go out there will be restrictionsWe live in a small town and it quickly gets back if this rule is broken Wink

behave when you are out, make sensible choices, think before you do anything potentially daft this sort of covers drinking and drugs / sex as well.

Typed out that all sounds much stricter than it actually is, we do discuss things and work it out together. I often say to him ' I'm not happy with you doing that/going there yet but we'll talk about it in another 6 months. We've had no yelling or arguments about things YET but I'm not holding my breath, I'm sure it'll happen at some point. I try and stay really calm with ds, my mum clamped down on me terribly and was super strict, I felt suffocated and left home at 17 just so I could live and breathe a bit, I don't want that happening in this house so I try and be as reasonable as I can.

I don't know if any of that rambly post is helpful OP, I have heard good things about the Teenage Brain book as mentioned earlier by a PP.

mathanxiety · 16/04/2015 16:04

He is branching out. You have thwarted a healthy desire to extend his social circle and take steps away from home by placing unreasonable barriers in the face of his desire to maintain a relationship with friends. You have driven him into something that is far less safe.

I agree with MoreCrackThanHarlem wrt your rules. My DCs do not go out and wander around in the evenings. None of their friends do either. I have them involved in sports that have evening events (basketball, volleyball, badminton, swimming), and they also have a lot of homework to do. They are also expected to contribute to preparing dinner and clearing everything up. All of this eats up the evening nicely. Like MoreCrack, mine sometimes go to a film or out to eat, and since this is a concrete destination and solid plan it is ok with me. But there is no hanging around, wandering the streets, drifting into people's houses and out again, winding up in the darkest corner of the local parks or behind the railway yard, etc., with a few bottles of cider and cigarettes or whatever else anyone wants to try.

They do go on sleepovers and out on weekends as long as there is a plan with a destination and solid times involved, with the proviso that if their grades in school slip or if they find themselves having to stay up past midnight to finish work we will sit down and think about their time management together.

They provide me with contact numbers. I have at this point dozens of numbers in my phone, stretching back to the mid 2000s from DD1's teen years. I probably called about five of those numbers in the course of their teens. One rule I have that is not negotiable is that if I call or text when they are out then they have to either pick up the phone immediately or call or text me within fifteen minutes. The consequence for not calling back or making me wait is to have me take their phone for one day afterwards. It may not seem like much but it is realistic that one day is a painful one and there is scope for escalation of my consequences if there are signs of unreasonableness. The other rule is that if plans change they must call me and inform me.

............
Your choice of how you expressed yourself conveyed very well the feelings you had (tear stained/white faced/ little mum), and you confirm that you felt small and powerless.

You do not understand what boundaries are if you use the phrase 'He pushed his boundaries way too far'. A boundary is not a rule. A boundary is not a leash on a dog that gets overextended.

A boundary is a healthy sense of self respect and a healthy sense of respect for other people. Your son defies you, and argues with teachers in school. He appears unmotivated in school. Your son does not have healthy boundaries.

He and his father have fallen out and this is the major elephant in the room that you are spectacularly ignoring right now. You have described your exH as an authoritarian parent, which is a style that can backfire horribly especially in the case of boys when they turn into teens. Your son's experience of authority and respect has been very negative and not conducive to the development of healthy self respect up to now, (and if your exH was in any way abusive towards you then his experience of that needs to be addressed too because that will have had a big impact on DS even if you think he was not aware of what was going on.)

"I think the trust foundations are put in place earlier on when a child understands that you would rather deal with the truth no matter how bad it is than him putting his life in danger "
Your son is not going to share the truth with you when he sees you all white face, tear stained and upset on the couch.
If you think that sort of demeanour and attitude on your part doesn't do harm you are terribly mistaken. It harms you because it makes you look weak and afraid and it harms the relationship with your son because you are asking him to be responsible for your feelings. It doesn't help him develop a sense of personal responsibility for his own behaviour -- it doesn't contribute at all to the development of healthy boundaries in other words. It will just make him hide important facts from you to avoid the unpleasantness and the manipulation.

Above all, it doesn't give him the confidence he needs that he has a solid and dependable parent. Making a child responsible for your feelings turns him into the parent but you are trying to make him follow rules as if he were a child. You are not encouraging the development of healthy boundaries here. You are creating difficulties for him as he tries to figure out how to make good decisions when you throw the complication of 'minding mum' into the equation.

It is extremely important that you behave in a way that lets your son know that you can handle anything that comes your way.
Sitting up white faced and tear stained and indulging your inner 'little mum' is not the way to portray a mother who is on top of things, in whom her son can have confidence. He needs an authority figure, not someone whose anxiety has got the better of her. By authority figure I mean someone who is able and willing to lead, not resort to reaction that is manipulative.

By lead I mean sitting him down, explaining your valid concerns in a way that does not overegg things, and asking him to come up with some way you can both achieve what you want in this situation. He may want complete freedom. You are going to have to explain to him that a compromise is what you are asking him for, because that is not an option. He may surprise you by being reasonable, showing signs of understanding your concerns.

Your discussion needs to range over his relationship with his dad. This is a bull you are going to have to take by the horns. Listen very closely. Ask him how he feels about your relationship with his dad. Do not cry. Thank him for any sharing of his real feelings he offers.

The subject of school needs to be addressed too. Again, listen. Ask him for suggestions about improving the situation there, what he can do instead of arguing with teachers. 14 year old boys are not the best at looking ahead even to the next week so do not be tempted to dive into 'what-are-you-going-to-do-with-the-rest-of-your-life-if-you-fail-in-school?' territory. Ask him what his goals in school could be in the very short term - week by week - and what he is going to do daily to achieve those short term goals. You need to establish the fact that he is accountable to you for his conduct in school and you need to work with him to find a way to improve things. Going forward taking baby steps is often a fruitful approach as long as things don't sink to the level of one person nagging and one person resenting. You need to ask him how he is going to solve problems.

Wrt trust:
It is always a case of 'trust but if there is any niggle of doubt, verify'.
And there is always a Plan B, which is 'Call me and I will extract you from the situation on a No Questions Asked basis, and if any of your friends want to get out too, they can pile into my car and stay with us overnight.'

You have to keep on encouraging the good decisions and the only way to do that is to allow them a bit of leeway so they can understand consequences for themselves. It is a fine line to tread. When a good decision is made you need to show approval. A poor decision is trickier to handle. 'I told you so' has limited effect. Asking them how they could have made a better decision can help them come up with their own judgement of a situation next time. Teens really do need feedback and they welcome it despite what you may think, but they also need to have a feeling of autonomy, and to have their need to branch out honoured and facilitated within reasonable limits.

Please be honest with yourself about your anxiety and seek help.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 16/04/2015 16:15

I'd be more than a little 'tear stained' if my ds rang me up, told me he was staying out and didn't give me any more info, he could have been any where, doing anything with any one! That wouldn't make me weak, it would make me human.

Seriouslyffs · 16/04/2015 16:38

He's 14! In year 8!
Much of the advice on here is great, but for much older kids.
It's not about trust, its about experience and judgement. The whereabouts of a 14 yo should be 100% certain.

mathanxiety · 16/04/2015 16:46

I think it would be sensible to reflect on how my own actions might have contributed to that though, and to bite the bullet and examine what needed to be changed.

The sight of a tear stained little mum sitting on the couch is only going to be good for one incident. After that the spectacle becomes ineffective, and worse than ineffective, it invites contempt. So sitting up white faced, etc., is not a plan, it is the wimpy equivalent of the nuclear option, and it can only be used once.

A better approach is needed, one that is going to require the DS to see that he and his mother have mutual responsibilities and that he is still accountable to her. Asking the DS to articulate what he sees as the problems, sharing what the OP sees as the problems, and working together to solve what they agree those problems are may be a better way forward than parentifying him, presenting herself as overwhelmed and not coping, and ignoring the issue of the failed relationship with his father.

mathanxiety · 16/04/2015 16:46

And yes, I might cry too.

But my DCs would never see that.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 16/04/2015 16:49

seriously my dd is 14 and my advice still stands.
I never check with other parents if she tells me she is sleeping at a friend's because my experience of dd's judgement is that she doesn't lie, would call if she was unsure of a situation, and knows how to keep herself safe. I absolutely trust her and will continue to do so unless she proves me wrong.

Last week she took the train into the city, went shopping and had lunch with friends. I have only her word that this is what she did, but would never think to suspect otherwise.

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 16/04/2015 16:50

Actually math,I think you have a point. Looking back I hated it when my mum cried as I felt 'unsafe.'

I agree, at 14 you should know exactly where your 14 year old is, if you don't something's very wrong.

mathanxiety · 16/04/2015 16:54

When the OP had the chance to know her DS's whereabouts she blew it by making him approach parents to ask them to phone her to confirm details. She drove a wedge between him and his known friends at that point. He missed years of sleepovers through her own refusal to do something reasonable and responsible and grown up, insisting instead that her DS do something he made it clear he would not do.

She seems to have a blind spot where sleepovers are concerned but is willing to allow her son to engage in activities that are actually far more likely to result in dangerous situations arising -- hanging out with his peers until late in the evening with no real idea of where he is or who he is encountering or what they are all doing together, and no adult to call and check that everything is ok.

There is a lack of common sense here, and stubbornness that has actually had some negative results. This is possibly the result of anxiety about sleepovers getting the better of her, making it difficult for her to see that sleepovers are not the danger here.

Seriouslyffs · 16/04/2015 16:56

Morecrack ditto mine for the city trips etc. but overnight? It's my duty as a parent to know where my 14 to old.

You say she 'knows how to keep herself safe': I think you're putting too much responsibility on a 14 yo.
Teenagers are lovely, but they make bad judgement calls. I checked where she was and that there were adults there so she wouldn't be the one wondering whether friend x was asleep or whether an ambulance should be called, so that she didn't get to a friends house and discover that the parents weren't there...
Again it's not about trust its about support and responsibility.

mathanxiety · 16/04/2015 17:05

Yes I agree. Something is wrong when a parent does not know where her 14 year old is. Therefore the hanging out in the evenings has to stop and a sensible approach to other socialising is needed. You cannot thwart teens' development by keeping them in all the time. There comes a point even with a sensible approach when you have to just trust though, as MoreCrack says.

That is exactly what I wanted to convey -- "unsafe" is the feeling a child or teen gets when a parent breaks down/cries in front of them. I feel that parents have to show their teens that they are in control of themselves (so no raging or temper fits on the one hand, and no crying on the other) and are grown ups. It won't stop them thinking you are a huge embarrassment, but that is a different level of issue from the one where a teen sees his parent being weak, because when a parent comes across as weak the teen feels unparented.

bigTillyMint · 16/04/2015 17:08

Sorry, but how can he be both 14 and in Y8? DS is 14 and is in Y9Confused

Parenting a 14yo boy is not always easy. Mine is very independent, confident and responsible and thinks he is 18 but still needs us to keep tabs on him and enforce our rules/boundaries. We do trust him, but not in a laissez-faire way IYSWIM.

There is a lot of good advice on this thread. We all make mistakes, but as parents, we have to try to put them right and do the best we can. Your DS is not a lost cause - you can move on and change, and hopefully that will help him to grow and act increasingly responsible and sensible, etc.

mathanxiety · 16/04/2015 17:19

Wrt responsibility and support --
You are responsible for teaching them to make real decisions in real life situations and to do that you have to allow them some leeway.

You can't do the necessary teaching in a lab. You have to find some environment where a wrong decision will not result in consequences that affect the rest of their lives, but will still allow them to learn the fairly hard way what they should have done. So a sleepover where parents are home might be the way to go. A trip to a film or to dinner with certain trains to catch and a certain time to be home by might be ideal. Hanging out with other teens around the neighbourhood with no adult supervision and no purpose might not.

When you allow an outing or a sleepover you can make it clear that you welcome calls when situations have not developed as planned or anticipated. When those calls come you can ask if they feel they would like to call it a night.

Calm reactions and reasonable post mortems will go a long way to teaching how to handle things next time. Freaking out and allowing your teens to see that will just undermine your authority. Preaching at them about various dangers will likewise be ineffective as a teaching tool. Asking them for their opinions of situations and their own suggestions for solutions when issues arise makes them far more invested in the outcome.

Fleurdelise · 16/04/2015 17:20

Of course you should always know where your child is overnight at 14. But in my opinion OP broke the communication bridge with DS by insisting on a rule he wasn't comfortable with. He felt the need to lie because this was the way he was going to get what he wanted.

And we all have doubts and feel unsure but communication is the key. And negotiation. If I see that a rule doesn't work I try to find out how do other people with similar age DC deal with it.

BalloonSlayer · 16/04/2015 17:31

My DS is 14 and in Year 10!

Not that I disagree with needing to know where they are at 14.

Year 7 - Start age 11 turn 12 during school year
Year 8 - Start age 12, turn 13 "
Year 9 - Start age 13, turn 14 "
Year 10 - Start age 14, turn 15 "

and so on

TheGirlFromIpanema · 16/04/2015 17:32

At 14 he must be year 9 or a younger year 10 Confused

OP it al lsounds very odd. what sort of relationship do you have with him in general? Do you get on well? Is he helpful and respectful in the home and with his siblings etc?

I think your own anxiety is clouding your judgement somewhat.

I also agree with PP's that your rules seem inconsistent. Late (imo) nights without knowing any details seem fine but a sleepover is a no-no.

It might be worth sitting down together and discussing how things can change for the better going forward for both of you.

Good luck, as the parent of a 14 yr old stroppy teen I do know how hard it can be to find a good balance.

Fleurdelise · 16/04/2015 17:42

Regarding trust because I kept mentioning it: trust is built over time. In year 7 when my Ds wanted sleepovers at ours or at his friends we would get in touch. I would text the other parents to check it is fine or they would text me. By year 8 I had the phone numbers of all his sleepover friends. It became slowly less of a need to check with each other. Obviously Ds knew that if he says he is around "James' " I could text his mum to check he is indeed there. From time to time I would do and I never found out otherwise.

Now there is the occasional party around other friends houses. I don't always check with their parents. I just ask who is going and there will be at least two other of his regular friends going. Sometimes I check with the parents of these friends if their Ds said he is going to the same party.

Don't get me wrong, I have my sleepless nights sometimes also. Not necessarily about where he is because by allowing him to go he has no need to lie. But about what they are up to. Adults are home but I am sure they don't stay in the same room with the DCs. So there I have to trust DS fully that he will make the right decisions. We discuss teenage pregnancy, alcohol and drugs. And I hope it sinks in.
Because trust me here, if it is about drugs/sex/alcohol they do not need a sleepover to try all this.

bigTillyMint · 16/04/2015 17:51

Totally agree Fleur and Math That is our approach too!

DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen · 16/04/2015 17:55

I get twitchy about sleepovers with unknown families as one would presume it's a family like you're own but my experience as a teen was very different and there can be all sorts of members of the family in the house. To me that puts the teen in a very vulnerable position. Not always easy to get yourself out of an uncomfortable situation like that so until ds is a bit older I will insist on at least knowing the other family slightly. It does seem to be a MN thing though to let then go off with friends as soon as they're at high school, I don't know anyone in RL who is that relaxed about it, but at 14 anyway. 14 nearly 15 and I might feel differently.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 16/04/2015 18:04

I agree with Math and Fleur.

Even though I would say no to "hanging around" and always require a definite 'plan' from dd, in the end I often only have her word as to her whereabouts.
I don't check with other parents because until now she has never abused my trust. She rang me from a sleepover not so long ago to ask if she could see the 15 rated film they were planning to watch that evening. She checks that the route they are taking will be a safe one. She calls to ask if it's ok to go somewhere not on 'the plan' should they decide to include something extra in an outing.

The trust built between us over time means I do feel confident that when she says she is sleeping at a friend's, that is indeed where she will be.
Obviously, if she gives me reason to distrust her word I will re-evaluate this. So far though, it's working well for us.

I don't think this is too much responsibility for her. If she needs extra support in deciding how best to be safe and make good choices, she knows I am at the other end of the phone.
She is very aware of my expectations and applies this to her decision making.

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