Control/boundaries - the battle between an anxious parent vs defiant 14 year old

[Alvah]

I assume there is nothing that is 'normal' when it comes to teenagers, however I am struggling at the moment with a power play between being the responsible parent (setting clear boundaries) and the tornado force my of my son's mood when these boundaries squash his plans. I would really like your thoughts and opinions.

Single parent of two DS 14 & 12 and DD 10. Two youngest go to their dad at weekends, but DS 14 is refusing to go to dad for last 3 months. So I am now having to deal with weekend negotiations for the first time.

I am quite an anxious person by nature (as well as relatively quiet, introspective, calm and patient). I want to please and I like to avoid conflicts as much as possible. With a lively, sociable, streetwise, clever (defiant, angry, moody, 'I'll find a way to get what I want') 14 year old son, this is causing my nerves to completely fray.

He considers me very strict, I won't allow him to go for sleep overs (unless I know them and his friends parent phones me to tell me he is there). This is too embarrassing and leads to endless arguments (although I don't like arguments, I will not let him do whatever he wants). So he has had years of having to leave his friends who are going to sleepovers, and come home alone. (All he has to do is get them to phone me!)

I consider myself very lenient, although with certain conditions. He is allowed out until 10.30 at weekends, but have until 11 to make it home before I freak out. He has been allowed to go out during the Easter Holidays from afternoon until late (this is new! He used to always have to come home for dinner and not allowed to be out from morning until night, although all his friends are allowed, of course). When school is on he has to be home at 9.30 but has until 10 before I freak, and has to have dinner here before he goes out, expect on Friday when he has dinner out.

Bedtime at the moment I have changed from turning off wifi at 10.30 about a year ago, to becoming 11.30 gradually, to becoming his responsibility lately. Easter Holidays he has turned day to night. I am not happy about it but am choosing not to fight about that as I am just glad he is safely in the house. So I would consider myself lenient and flexible and understanding of his needs.... am I?

Last two weeks however, we had an argument, he told me to shut up and so I logged him out of Netflix. When he came home he freaked at me and punched his walls and called be every horrible name under the sun. The next day he went out at lunchtime and announced by text he would be staying at a friends that night for a sleepover (it would be best for the both of us). Last time he threatened to do this I said I would phone the police if he didn't come home + phone round all his friends parents. He came home with his tail between his legs. This time he text me and asked for me to please trust him on this one, I said I don't even know where you are, so he eventually told me. I didn't know what to do, on the one hand he was communicating on the other he was still breaking my rules. I didn't want him to get away with it. But somehow I felt I shouldn't fight this one just now. He ended up coming home on his own accord at 10.30. I was so glad to see him I forgot to be angry.

Last night he asked if he could stay at a friends house, I know who they are but don't have contact details. I said 'if his mum texts/phones me and tells me you are there'. After lots of arguments over text I got a text on my DS' phone 'apparently' from his friends dad. I don't believe it was him for a minute. Later he said 'stop worrying mum, I can look after myself, just trust me on this one, I love you - I'll be home in the morning'.

It is now morning. I have hardly slept. I had a nightmare he and his friends had dumped a body in the river, my son saying that 'if they don't find out we'll get away with it!' My stomach has been churning and I have been in tears. I feel awful. I feel he is slipping out of my grasp, and I don't known what to do about it. Punishing him seems to make things worse. Talking to him calmly seems to work much better, but he still just pushes and pushes the boundaries. I am getting so anxious that I don't know when I am over reacting and when I need to DO something.

Sorry for it to be so long. Just needed to get this off my chest :(

No, nothing wrong with dropping a text. But asking the other parent to text you may be a bit of a pain and an embarrassment for your DC to request when it is not the norm. You could easily ask for a contact number, I guess it is easier for DCs to ask for a contact number. Something on the lines of "can you give me your mum's number so my mum has an emergency phone number in case my phone dies". Rather than "Mrs. Jones can you please text my mum to ask if I am allowed".

Then once you have the phone number it is your choice if you use it to check DS is there or not.

As I said I don't check usually now because of the circumstances. I have the contact numbers of Ds' friends parents and he knows I could check at any point.

We did have the odd party in the last year where as I said I requested the full address, phone number, details of who is coming from his regular friends, sometimes discussed with their parents if their DC is indeed going.

With going out during the week I am quite strict, he can go twice a week and home by 7,30 when his dad picks him up to bring him home.

The latest he stays out is 9,30 on a Fridays when he participates to a regular activity that lasts till then. I then go and pick him up as I don't like him on the streets on his own in the dark.

Weekend usually out till about 8,30 on Saturdays. If he has sleepovers he needs to call me when he is in his friend's house for my piece of mind that he is off the streets. Also if any change of plans he has to let me know.

I explained to him it is not because he is not allowed but because I need to know he is safe.

I realise that I have let the curfew boundaries slide too far too fast with my DS. It has been an intense time since he stopped going to his dad's (3 months ago) and our negotiations of weekend rules have rapidly expanded from his dad never letting him out at weekends to me allowing too much. We have slipped into 16/17 year old boundaries like some of you have described them...

Saying that he is a very 'mature' 14 year old, as in has always seemed at least a year older than what he is. He is very smart, wise and can see through any manipulation, he always has. He is also very adventurous and full of testosterone, eager to explore. Just telling him what to do has never worked with him, there has always been compromises and negotiations.

I have made it clear to my DS that I am happy for him to go on sleepovers with friends whose parents I have a contact number and I know who they are, so that I can drop them a quick text if I need to and then he does not need to be involved.

He had an argument with his dad about 3 months ago, and said he was never going back. This happened about 6 months previously too, but I made him go back. He felt manipulated and forced to go back that time and I think he has simply 'had it'. He does have valid reasons not to go back and I am not going to force it this time, it will only drive him further away. There is still hope that they will find a way to reconcile their differences, but also a chance that they never will. Having to deal with this on my own for the next 4 years scares me.

Personally I think unless there is abuse involved and I'm presuming not as his siblings visit their dad, then he should go to his dad. Arguments and fall outs are part of family life and need to be worked through.

Tbh he sounds like a normal teenage boy, most of them are as bright as buttons and see through manipulation, that's why there needs to be clear, non negotiable ground rules in place and we need nerves of steel

DameDiazepam - I would say there is emotional abuse and has been physical abuse (punitive/reactive). DS 14 when in a temper displays a stubborn defiance which has been dealt with with a smack in the past at times, but last time being hit with the back of the hand across the face.

I have had Social Work's opinion on risk to all DC in relation to this and they assessed them to be at low risk, i.e not recommending refusal of contact. Younger two want to go to dad and do not have same issues as oldest. Due to different personalities creating different dynamics, it works for now. However DS 14 is deemed old enough, also in the eyes of the Law, to decide if he wants to see his dad or not.

I am working on the Nerves of Steel...

Bloody hell, no wonder he's acting up, poor boy

" He won't tell me even if he was doing something 'bad', even though I tell him that I won't be cross and I'd rather he just talked to me about it. But I have said to him that if something happened or he was in trouble (with drink/drugs or anything that he must phone me) and he said 'Of course I would'.

He came home early tonight, announcing he is going to stay home.He came in and asked if I was okay (tear stained/white faced/little mum sitting in the couch) and I said yes I'm fine. Tears pouring again at the sight of him. I said 'I'm just worried about you, that's all'. He smiles and patted my head and said again 'I'll be all right mum, I can look after myself'. I hope he's right."
-- I hope you can see the relationship between those two statements.

"He is very smart, wise and can see through any manipulation, he always has."
-- I hope you understand that includes the scene he walked home to.

You have got to tackle the breakdown of the relationship with his dad and the fallout from his dad's fondness for force. You have absolutely got to find someone to help him (counselling) regarding the back of the hand across the face and whatever other aggression there has been.

So far there has been quite a lot of fallout from the relationship issue he has had with his dad. He argues with teachers, you have seen him attracted to tough kids and trying to act older than he is, and you have seen him punch walls in your home in anger; all of this is problematic and none of it is going to go away on its own.
1 -- He needs counselling to deal with the force his father has used and the emotional abuse and relationship breakdown. This is essential.
2 -- You need to get out of your comfort zone, get to know more parents and start putting phone numbers in your phone.
3 -- The going out at night has to stop. Your exH sounds like a prick but he is right about this.

Letting kids out at night is like squeezing toothpaste out of the tube. It is really hard to get it back in again. But you are going to have to limit it severely and then cut it out with maybe an exception at weekends. You are going to have to find something else for your DS to do.

Is there any martial arts class available anywhere you could get him to? If there is anything remotely possible in that line then I strongly urge you to get him into it, make whatever financial sacrifice it takes and whatever effort on your part is needed to transport him.

This boy is dealing with parents who are at two extremes and neither one is meeting his need for a steady and consistent and realistic grown up in his life. On the one had you have his dad with his forceful approach and on the other you sit white faced on the couch. He has rejected the forceful approach and now relies only on you to be the grown up.

So it is up to you to start getting smart. Step one is accepting that this boy has been damaged by his father and getting help. Step two is accepting he is what he is and dealing with that reality, and not wringing your hands about how poorly he compares with the others, stop looking back to his toddler ambition, and embrace his normal teen instinct to grow up and become independent. You have to stop the efforts to control and find a way to work with him instead of against him, and above all you need to get past your anxiety about confrontation and your fear if having him walk away from you, and understand that compromise has to involve more for you than just buying a little temporary peace.

Like it or lump it, you are now the only parent he has to deal with, and you are going to have to stop manipulating him with the tears and visible upset. He sees through it and it is making him keep his own counsel.

I have said this before -- get help yourself for your anxiety. It is leading you to make bad decisions (no to sleepovers/yes to late curfew) and negotiate from a position of weakness (fear that unless you give in to late curfews or he will run away from home is not a great starting point).

I have arranged for counselling for my son, first at the age of 10. And again at the age of 13. Both times he has been 'dismissed' from support services due to his behaviour in school 'not being bad enough'. They don't feel he really needed it. Both instances was arranged by me, not the school. I have suggested we find someone else he can talk to, but he is not keen at the moment. Both other times he was on board and wanted to get help to deal with his feelings and finding ways to manage his anger.

Yes you are right, I have two new parents numbers added to my phonebook this week, so that i can offer him opportunities for sleepovers. I have another two in sight to approach. However this is something that really irks him.

The going out at night is tricky like you say, but something he deeply values. That is only the second time he's been out this week, and both times he's come home early. Weekend curfew is at 10.30 now, not 11.

Also I think you hit the nail on the head, when you say I come from a weakened position (afraid he will run away if he doesn't get what he wants), this really is the heart of the issue of my original question of boundaries/rules. This is where I need some support and advice to find the strength and own the role of the parent.

I really am becoming to appreciate your advice Mathanxiety, but for the love of God will you let go of the 'tear stained little mum' issue. I get your point, I did in your first post, and yes your message has sunken in loud and clear. However tears are not a sign of weakness in my eyes, having grown up with a mother who would hide any trace of 'weak' emotions, I on the contrary see expression of what we truly feel as a strength. Being upset about a situation doesn't make you weak. Realising that in that moment your are in pretty deep s*t when it comes to managing parenting, but carrying on regardless and working out compromises, can make a child feel equally safe as if a parent shuts themselves away with their feelings.

When it comes to dealing with being an over anxious parent, yes, I worry - I worry a lot. Sometimes justified, sometimes not. We have all been through an ordeal together and still are to some extent. I deal with anxiety and stress in many different ways (relaxing techniques, long baths on a Sunday, jogging etc.) I am not afraid to let them see that sometimes life gets tough, and yes there might even be some tears. My eyes well up at any little thing anyway, an advert/a hurt animal/movies etc. But you know what, tears never killed anyone, and neither does it mean you feel sorry for yourself. Tears come when the heart is moved, by beauty, love, sadness or hurt. By expressing how you feel, being human in front of your children, they learn that it is natural for life to be tough at times but that we always manage to find our way onwards and upwards anyway.

You need to get counselling for him that is not related to school. He has been a victim of abuse by his father, both physical and you say emotional. This is already showing itself in his behaviour -- the wall punching is a big red flag. You must roll up your sleeves and get him help. Don't go cap in hand looking for free help and accepting it when you get fobbed off. Get private counselling. Call your local Women's Aid and see if they can give you any pointers to an agency that could help him, or a counsellor. He will no be willing to go, and a counsellor will have a hard time dragging a response out of him because boys do not easily find the words to describe the sort of humiliation he felt his father inflicted on him when he struck him, or to describe the anger that made him punch the walls and makes him argue with teachers. But you need to broach the matter and have a plan ready when you do. You can call it all a 'debriefing', or 'assessing the relationship with dad', or 'assessing the relationships in your life'. It will be important to find a counsellor who understands abuse and won't push him to reconcile.

And please find help with your own anxiety or you will not be able to be an effective parent for your DS. You have to be willing to show him who is boss and to believe yourself that it is you. Becoming paralysed by your fears and allowing them to get you stuck in entrenched positions will exhaust you and render you ineffective. Tackling your anxiety should help you overcome your fear of confrontation and help you to take the lead.

When it comes to your DS, again, please do not be under any misapprehensions about tears and crying. He has been exposed to a bully (his father) who has had a lot of influence over him he is the closest model he has of what a man is and how a man behaves and you must not cry in front of him. You can cry when he is out of earshot and can't see you. But when he is there you need to be visibly in control of yourself, and no pale face or red eyes either.

(It's ok to find something in your eye if you're watching a film however, and to connect with him in the emotion of that sort of moment.)

Even 10.30 instead of 11 is far, far too late for a 14 year old to be staying out until unless it's a concrete plan like going to the cinema and even then you need to know who he's going with, who's taking him or how he's getting there and what time the film finishes.

It almost sounds like you seek his permission Wrt counselling,I would be saying to my ds ' we're all going to family counselling at 5 pm Thursday, so don't make any plans.' It doesn't really matter of he's on board with it, it's not an adult choosing to go to counselling. He needs it, you all do, and it must be provided just like you'd give him paracetamol if he had a headache.

Mathanxiety - when approaching the GP they refer us to the school if it is in regards to a child's welfare/need for counselling/ additional support etc. the Named Person in school (his guidance teacher) is responsible for organising stream lined support.

However you are right, it might be time to go private and get him a deeper kind of counselling service which can delve a little deeper into his experiences in his childhood and now. How would you get your teen to go though? If they said no?

We do talk about this frequently, how he feels and why he gets angry. How he feels about dad now. He is good at talking and good at putting his feelings into words. I don't think however his 'counselling' at school delved into the real issues though. Also it created an opportunity where he mixed with these older kids who are also experiencing problems and more likely to be involved in undesirable activities. He really enjoyed speaking to the 'early engagement team' counsellors because as he said ' they respect me and they don't shout like the other teachers'. When shouted at at school he will be standing up to them/answering back because it is 'safe' to do so, where it was not safe to do so with his dad, I think.

I had some counselling a few years back in regards to dealing with ex when things were at their worst. However it might be time now to get some help again to be strong enough to set healthy boundaries for my DS, because yes his use of aggression and anger is similar and will make me want to avoid confrontation when possible therefore leading to more lenient rules than I would like. I'm not a complete push over, but I do sometimes feel like I am not in charge and allow too much. I am also trying to protect the younger ones from witnessing volatile situations.

The anger and punching of walls etc. has calmed down considerably, now usually building up over a few months and then he explodes. Before it happened much more frequently (around ages 10 to 12). He never ever hurts anyone in his family.

So I take it the bottom line in this is that I need to 'Grow a Backbone' and step into the role of an empowered parent.

DameDiazepam - That is exactly it, we have got to a point were I feel unable to just 'tell him' what we are doing. In fact it has always been like that, but now that he is 14 and towering above me, he has a new found sense of advantage. He baulks at demands, always has. Huge battles commence and I have to be careful I don't demand something that he refuses and I risk 'loosing the battle'. Therefore with him there has always been negotiations and compromise, so that I don't have to back down on go back on what I said.

To get him to come to counselling, I will have to get him on board and willing. If he feels like he has a say in matters relating to himself and also it is more likely that he will come along. If he digs his heels in, I would need a digger to get him out.

This is not the case with the other children, they complain but I am in charge. There are no issues in setting boundaries and no real problems getting them to come with me or do what I say.

With my ds I have control because I pay for his phone, pocket money,wifi, xbox etc and any rudeness and those things get removed. Saying that though I haven't removed anything for a couple of years, there's just an understanding that that's what will happen if he pisses about. He also thrives on his Dad and me being proud of him and losing that is a big thing.

Ds digs his heels in too in but I present something as a 'choice' as in, 'you can choose not to go to counselling obviously I can't make you, but it'll do us all good and remember you enjoyed out last time, so we'll give 6 sessions a go and then see'

Tbh, the vague threat of the removal of mobile phones for undesirable behaviour is enough to keep most teens in check but keep that as a last resort!

What were the consequences for him staying out when you'd said no?

he is a very 'mature' 14 year old, as in has always seemed at least a year older than what he is. He is very smart, wise and can see through any manipulation, he always has. He is also very adventurous and full of testosterone, eager to explore. Just telling him what to do has never worked with him, there has always been compromises and negotiations

• this is DS too! I completely understand how hard you find it to battle against him - I can feel like this with my DS too, but we have DH here and work as a team. It's all very well trying to "grow a backbone" (and believe me, I have a strong one), but a huge teen with a loud, deep voice shouting you down is very wearing.

Have you thought about Family Therapy? Maybe you could get referred through the GP if school aren't forthcoming?
Do the school have Learning Mentors? The pastoral support team at my DC's school is very good - they have a different way of talking with the children and can provide a huge amount of support.

Dame - I did not punish him for staying out but that night . I decided prevention of it occurring again was better than the relationship breaking down completely. He insisted he had told me where he was, at his friends house like he said, and that I had said I was not happy about it, but that I had not said 'come home now!' I received a text 'apparently' from his friends dad, but this could have been anyone. I have no evidence of where he was that night, but a strong suspicion by looking on facebook the next morning.

I decided to instead of getting into a huge row about whether he was lying or not, to instead be very clear that there would not be any sleepovers again without me knowing exactly where he was and with who. He agrees and accepts that.

The consequence for him not coming home, if it happens again will be me coming to his friends houses looking for him in person, phoning round and if not traceable, I will call the police and report him missing.

BigTilly - Thank you for understanding. It means a lot to not feel completely alone. My back bone is all right I would say normally, but these days it has been really stressful and it is wearing me down. I am also finalising my degree alongside full time work and so that is also adding to the pressure.

The school offered talking therapy which focussed strongly on developing empathy when he was seen when he was 10. The latest one was more anger management focussed when he was 13. He really enjoyed it and it helped take the pressure off him as he was able to relax and 'be himself'. Unfortunately the youth worker he was seeing broke his collar bone and was off sick for weeks and as my son was managing his behaviour so much better than the other kids getting help, he was let go of. I will contact the lady in charge again and see if there is a way for him to come back, however I would have to ask about the risk of him mixing with a culture of delinquency, by being there...

Hermia - At school he does not shout at the teachers, it is more an issue of answering back/questioning and feeling 'picked on' and 'blamed for everything'. If someone does something he says he is the one that gets shouted at. The situation is not as bad as it was last year. He will now very rarely get sent out of class for bad behaviour. They get three warnings and then they get sent. This builds up as de-merits which if it goes over a certain limit, the guidance teacher will be in touch to see what can be done to improve the situation.

I am well aware of that he provokes the teachers, because I know how he can be. I am also aware of that sometimes the teacher gets it wrong and they get blamed for something they didn't do. We spoke about this the other day and we both agree that most of the time it is him, but that some of the warnings are unfair.

It used to be that if he was sent out of class, he would not be allowed out to see his friends after school. He would need to speak to me about what happened and make sure he knew what he could have done differently. Now, because it happens very rarely, it is not so much of an issue.

It has only happened once, that he has stayed out all night, with older boys, although according to him it never happened. But he had threatened not to come home two times previously, so it had kind of built up to it. This has led me to feel on shaky ground and am looking for the way to deal with him that doesn't trap him but that encourages reasonable and responsible behaviour in exchange for freedom.

It is clear that I need to re-instate clear rules and boundaries. I will need to be brave enough to face his wrath and to say No when it is needed. I have not taken his tv or phone away for the last few months, as things have been reasonable okay. Apart from these sudden and forceful acts of 'I will do whatever I want'. He realises afterwards that he has gone too far and is often reasonable to talk to when calm.

He would not give me his phone, I would have to cancel his contract or block it temporarily. I logged him out of Netflix last time, and that was what led to him running off for the night, because he was raging. This is why I am trying to work out how to deal with his behaviour in a way that sets clear boundaries but does not provoke him to react dangerously. To not let him get away with things, but similarly not push him over the edge.

I will maybe draft up some set rules and related consequences in case he breaks them. He tends to deal much better when he knows what his consequence will be.

He knows that if he is in trouble at school, he won't be allowed out that day. If he is late for school, the wifi comes of early that evening. If he doesn't come home, I will come looking or call the police. If he is late home he has to come in early the next day.

Alvah, I am not surprised that you are stressed if you are doing a degree and working full-time and have 3 children to look after on your own

Your DS sounds very similar to mine We have found, from talking to parents of his mates/footy-teammates, that this is the experience of a lot of parents - you are not alone! But it is even harder parenting without another adult to back you up, and vv.

It sounds like the consequence that you have thought of are entirely reasonable. Good Luck!

I just want to clarify about the 'crying' business... crying as defined by me is teary eyes (occasionally enough to overflow). Not sobbing or crying with any sort of sound or way that stops me from having a normal conversation or state of mind.

Tears have always come easily to me and go just as easily away. Often accompanied by a smile, as I know I am a being a bit daft. When watching tv together they will turn and look at me when certain things happen in the film, as they know that is the kind of things that brings water to my eyes. Happy moments as well as sad ones. I do not purposefully use it as manipulation of a situation or as a tactic.

I think there danger is when the parent is in a depressed state of mind and the child sees the parent cry, rather than when the parent is fine but teary eyed for whatever reason. If I felt despair or if I really cried, this would be done when they are not here.

Thank you TillyMint Sometimes that is takes the edge of the stress to hear that others have similar experiences

Hermia - I'm putting my 'Big girl pants' on as we speak .

Parenting book ordered from amazon of how to deal with strong willed teens according to child and parent temperaments.

I have had a chat with him again and said that I will be drawing up set rules and consequences so that he knows what will happen.

I will make proper effort to be firm (not pussy footing) and if I need to say No, we will just have to let him rage and hope younger siblings won't be too traumatised

That is very good advice about the phone, Hermia! We have done similar with DS - never got to the contract cancelling stage