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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

16 yo Daughter knows of our drug use

192 replies

beecee · 11/08/2014 19:36

Our daughter caught both of us using cocaine about 12 months ago and we now know she also read phone messages where we talked about drug use , very bad parenting we know . She is now at nearly 16 starting to push many of the usual boundaries and has mildly started to reference to what she know as a kind of blackmail/bargaining tool , I'm not sure how to go about this and any help with this would be great .

OP posts:
funnyossity · 15/08/2014 11:48

LittlePeas For "holier than thou" I'd put rational!

Getting involved in illegality adds a whole new dimension to substance abuse. I've had alcoholics and drug addicts in my family and the physical effects have been fatal in both types of addiction but the personal / family / social cost in the run up was far greater in the illegal side of things.

I like a trip round a legal whisky distillery or vineyard; the estates where I grew up however are now plagued by gun crime related to illegal drugs.

Fair enough to campaign for legalised production if you wish but don't pretend it's hypocritical or hysterical to advise your family to avoid illegal activity because ,like, the rules are stupid.

daddydaddycool · 15/08/2014 13:15

Mathanxiety - here we go again.

Am I contesting the proposition that obeying the law is a good idea? No, but I am contesting the proposition that laws should be obeyed BECAUSE they are fundamentally beneficial to society.

After 50 years of global prohibition, drugs are cheaper, more available and widely used than ever before; a $300bn (£190bn) a year - and still growing - trade has been gifted to organised criminals and unregulated dealers - creating vast costs for those least able to bear them - undermining public health and human rights, fuelling crime, corruption and conflict, and destabilising entire regions.

So, why has this war not been ended mathanxiety? Why do politicians continue to support it? The fundamental answer is disturbing. Prohibition clearly does not work. However, it meets the needs of the world's superpowers, who can resource and engage their military, police and criminal justice systems, all justified in the war against the global "drug menace".

And at the same time it meets the needs of global financial markets who launder the billions in illicit profits. As an example HSBC was recently fined $1.9bn for, among other things, laundering $881m of drug cartel money.
We can all agree that over-use of many drugs leads to health and social problems. Over 150,000 people die from alcohol and tobacco related illnesses each year in the UK. Very few people will argue that painkillers should be illegal, but paracetamol (or acetaminophen in US) toxicity is one of the most common causes of poisoning worldwide. In the US and the UK it is the most common cause of acute liver failure. Despite this, these drugs are regulated, and taxed, which allows the profit made from drug use to go towards better causes, such as rehab and scientific research, health care and policing.

Do I fundamentally believe that total legalisation is the solution? To be honest really I don’t know, but prohibition sure ain’t working, and we are remiss if we do not at least consider the alternatives.

Consensus is growing that prohibition has not only failed to deliver its intended goals, but has also been counterproductive. Evidence is mounting that this policy has not only exacerbated many public health problems, but has created a much larger set of secondary harms associated with the criminal market.

In the UK, these conclusions have been reached by a succession of committees and reports, including those commissioned by central government.

As for the US, a report sponsored by the New York County Lawyers' Association, one of the largest local bar associations in the United States, argues on the subject of US drug policy:

“Notwithstanding the vast public resources expended on the enforcement of penal statutes against users and distributors of controlled substances, contemporary drug policy appears to have failed, even on its own terms, in a number of notable respects. These include

  • minimal reduction in the consumption of controlled substances;
  • failure to reduce violent crime; failure to markedly reduce drug importation, distribution and street-level drug sales;
  • failure to reduce the widespread availability of drugs to potential users;
  • failure to deter individuals from becoming involved in the drug trade;
  • failure to impact upon the huge profits and financial opportunity available to individual "entrepreneurs" and organized underworld organizations through engaging in the illicit drug trade; the expenditure of great amounts of increasingly limited public resources in pursuit of a cost-intensive "penal" or "law-enforcement" based policy;
  • failure to provide meaningful treatment and other assistance to substance abusers and their families; and
  • failure to provide meaningful alternative economic opportunities to those attracted to the drug trade for lack of other available avenues for financial advancement.”

Pretty strong stuff from a bunch of lawyers, eh?

An argument commonly used by prohibition supporters is "what about crack users, heroin users, what about their children". Firstly, alcohol and tobacco clearly ruin more children’s lives that crack cocaine and heroin combined. But would legalising these hard drugs significantly increase their use? Would either of us take heroin if it were legalised tomorrow, mathanxiety? No. Do you truly believe that the law is preventing most would-be heroin and crack users from choosing to use the drugs? I doubt it. Drug users use drugs regardless of laws and people abstain from drugs regardless of legality.

Let’s move to my (x 1000 worse) “execrable assessment that because I find appalling the sight of a devastated neighbourhood that functions as an open air market for controlled substances and prostitution, my opinion is somehow lacking in balance.”

That’s not why I think you lack balance, and did not state or imply as such. I just think you lack balance overall. But I digress. Then you pose me the question,

“If you are trying to assert that dire poverty is going to inevitably result in drug use then what is your excuse for using?”

Presumably, this is in response to my (pretty reasonable) statement,

“You provide a hard-hitting description of the issues faced in the vicinity of your neighbourhood (not your own, I understand that) but with respect, deprivation leading to habitual drug use is not news.”

Your related question is just presumptuous and irrelevant. There remains a strong association between poverty, social exclusion and problematic drug use. I think most people would accept that. But there is little or no correlation between whether people have ever tried illegal drugs (with the possible exceptions of heroin and crack cocaine) and deprivation. I think most people would accept that, too.

Then, you continue:

“You are entirely wrong in your understanding of statistics about risk of death from cocaine. You have the same risk of death by misadventure when you put a mystery powdered substance into your nose each and every time you use it, whether that is once a week or once a year. Frequency of use is not a key factor. Use is the only factor. You play Russian roulette every single time. Same goes for ecstasy.”

Now I’m no statistician, but here’s a patent example of why you lack balance. I never stated that my choices were entirely free of risk, but for you to state that doing something that contains an element of risk once every year carries just the same risk as doing it 52-fold is just absurd. Please, let’s keep this in perspective.

Onto our respective parenting: .

“They have heard the message about drug use since they were knee high to a duck. They are not going to come to me at this late stage of their moral development to ask for my advice about drugs because they know what my answer is going to be, and they demonstrate by their habits and attitudes that they have accepted the wallpaper I have created for their lives.”

Great, I’m genuinely glad it has worked for you. But you seem to be assuming that your ultra-conservative zero-tolerance approach to drugs is a model which should be extrapolated across the entire parenting spectrum with inevitable success. Again, that just does not lend itself to a balanced perspective and it pains me to explain why.

Then we get into the nitty-gritty around my family upbringing which, on the basis of a few lines on a forum (no pun intended), you appear to have nailed.

My parents were “derelict in their duty to supervise you, and you and your siblings took advantage of their dropping of the ball by deceiving them.”

We did what millions of young people do (but not your own of course).

“I would not consider this a solid family background.”

Which family background is that, then? The one you have invented to suit your unusually puritanical cause? Or the one that involved me (yawn, but for example) being an altar boy at church for 8 years, to swimming competitively at national level, to playing the flute at the Albert Hall, to working voluntarily for a learning disabilities charity, to frequent offshore sailing via a youth project, to gaining my Queens Scout Award, to gaining an honours degree, to working in the far east to improve the lives of deprived marginalised communities, to building a subsequent successful career in the environmental sector which involves making a tangible difference on a good wage? Sorry to disappoint you, but as you can see it was quite a different upbringing to your own which involved “most of their time outside of school was/is spent doing homework and studying”.

You then say

“What you seem to have learned from your upbringing is a sense of invincibility and personal privilege that puts you above the law and makes you immune from the statistics, and blind to the suffering caused by the business whose product you buy.”

Presumably your own consumer decisions (albeit currently considered ‘legal’ at your own point in the supply chain) have no broader negative consequences - you buy Fair Trade goods, you actively avoid products from unsustainable sources, you ensure that your family’s clothing isn’t sourced from factories employing child labour, your engagement ring didn’t contain a ‘blood diamond’ etc. etc.

Then you say loads of other stuff which is entirely unrepresentative of my personal situation, or my perspective on life, or my approach to bringing up my children. I don't take offence because I can no longer take your opinion seriously. Your own blind absolutism is wearing me down now. I’ve lost the will to respond.

But I had to look up the word midden. You learn something new every day.

LittlePeasMummy1 · 15/08/2014 13:45

I had read all of the thread, and some people have posted very rational and helpful comments. But some people's knee jerk reactions were very telling (it was reported just a couple of posts in because people couldn't believe that it was 'for real')

My point wasn't that drugs are not a problem. My point was that the fact that some substances are legal while others are not is absolutely spurious and so any reaction based purely on 'legality' is irrational and in many cases, hypocritical.

By the way, I am not teetotal by any means in case anyone was wondering. But the idea that drinking in moderation is 'risk free' is rubbish. Just becuase it doesn't have acute effects doesn't mean it won't effect long term health

daddydaddycool · 15/08/2014 16:04

LittlePeasMummy1 - thank you for providing some balance to this weirdly unbalanced thread.

*DISCLAIMER: for the benefit of LittlePeasMummy1: in no way am I trying to associate my own views with those of LittlePeasMummy1, she may think my own views are potty. I wouldn't wish her to to be on trial by association with the chosen (drug) 'demon on the shoulder'

mathanxiety · 15/08/2014 16:47

LittlePeas, Your point only stands if you assume all the posters who have posted about drugs hold contradictory attitudes towards drinking and wouldn't bat an eyelid at binge drinking.

Whether you believe the law should be different and alcohol should be a class A drug, it remains that cocaine and other narcotics are legal, and there is no excuse to ignore that and break the law. People are free to abstain from drinking if they wish. Plenty of people do.

And despite all your blather about prohibition, DaddyCool, cocaine is still illegal and you are breaking the law when you buy it and use it.

In fact, continuing to buy it only adds to the resources available to the industry that is selling it, making it that much more difficult to wipe out the trade and its attendant evils every single time you make a purchase, from a criminal. What you are proposing is that governments and public health officials allow a drug to become legal which, like alcohol as LittlePeas mentioned and as you appear to agree, has extremely harmful effects, basically because the industry that controls manufacture, distribution and sale of that drug has through its criminality defeated the forces that are opposed to the widespread availability of the drug.

The same thing happened with the ending of Prohibition in the US in 1933 and alcohol remains a big problem, contributing as you rightly say to the ruin of many a childhood. The idea that cocaine in turn should be unleashed on the public and normalised is just as stupid as the ending of Prohibition was if your own logic on that score is to be followed. Unless of course you are completely in denial about the harmful effects of cocaine, in which case I think you have even more of a problem than I suspected at first.

What is next on the list of things that should be legal that are now illegal but hard to police and are industries run by determined and violent criminals -- human trafficking, sex slavery, pornography that involves children?

However, it meets the needs of the world's superpowers, who can resource and engage their military, police and criminal justice systems, all justified in the war against the global "drug menace".

So now you think you are poking The Man in the eye and making some sort of geopolitical statement when you buy a few grams. You are a hippie hero in your own mind. Pardon me while I rofl at that for a few minutes.

You assert that I am some sort of ultra conservative and puritanical oddity purely because it suits your stance to brand yourself as some sort of balanced and thoughtful bloke with no agenda whatsoever and no problem with denial, or any sort or problem understanding statistics. That's pretty cheap.

You have a real talent for dodging questions and hairsplitting.

Here are my questions to you again:
Why did you decide to try cocaine (and ecstasy)?
(And I will throw in, 'Why do you keep on using them?')
Do you think it is ok to break the law?
You claimed to have a solid family background. What precisely do you mean by that?

'But there is little or no correlation between whether people have ever tried illegal drugs (with the possible exceptions of heroin and crack cocaine) and deprivation.'

I am getting the strong impression from your posts that one of the mental barriers you are failing to overcome in your appraisal of your cocaine use and cocaine use in general is the notion that cocaine is a higher class of drug than the recreational choices of the plebs. Your mention of heroin and crack in the context of deprivation and your preference for cocaine and ecstasy which you compare to a Michelin dining experience or an expensive outdoorsy rush strongly indicate that you think that cocaine is more of a UMC brand of recreational choice. It seems to me you are pretty much a snob about your drugs of choice therefore, and I suspect you are a victim of a fallacy commonly held by immature and affluent people that no harm will ever come to them because they are not like other people and what they put up their nose is superior in some way to what other people put into their bloodstream in less salubrious surroundings than those you enjoy.

I strongly suspect that when you say 'solid family background' is key, what you mean is you think you are coated in teflon because your parents were relatively comfortably off.

mathanxiety · 15/08/2014 16:48

and other narcotics are legal illegal

mathanxiety · 15/08/2014 16:52

It also strikes me, DaddyCool, that trying to assert that someone who respects the law, obeys it and teaches her children to do the same is 'puritanical' and 'ultra conservative' is a way of saying that only the uncool obey the law.

The fact that you look down your nose at 'decency' and the Daily Mail reinforces the impression I get that you consider that you and your choices and your values belong to a higher class of people..

TheBogQueen · 15/08/2014 17:27

I think use and abuse of drugs is a public health issue rather than a criminal matter.

It's so complex. Some drugs are illegal to possess or supply. Yet others are available on NHS - prescription drug addiction is a huge problem.

You do wonder if our health service was able to supply addicts with controlled amounts and plenty of support, our crime stats would fall and fewer addicts would OD

Of course there are also the occasional users - I wonder if it were decriminalised then people could use knowing exactly what they are taking.

This would mean it could be taxed And production controlled. This would perhaps reduce an income stream for organised crime.

It's clear that the current situation isn't working.

mathanxiety · 15/08/2014 17:31

The context of trying to tell a child to do as you say and not as you do is where the general principle of obeying the law comes into sharp focus.

TheBogQueen · 15/08/2014 18:03

It depends on whether you teach your children that obeying the law for its own sake is most important or whether you want your children to question and challenge authority.

I think we need laws to protect the weak and vulnerable, to keep us safe and ensure justice is done. But I may encourage my children to think critically about them.

Drugs are a grey area in certain contexts. You could see that in Brixton for many years when cannabis was effectively decriminalised for many years. You can see it at music festivals where a blind eye is turned to sma time recreational users.

When it comes to myself - if I think about it critically I would say that I do not take drugs for many personal reasons to do with the welfare of my family - and not getting a criminal record is one of the ways I protect my children and their future.

daddydaddycool · 15/08/2014 21:35

mathsanxiety - I think that any response I provide at this stage will be purposefully misconstrued by you whatever I say. But in the hope of tackling your assertion that, between us, I happen to be the one that possesses the 'real talent for dodging questions and hairsplitting', I will attempt to answer your questions:

"Why did you decide to try cocaine (and ecstasy)?"

I was raised in West London, UK in the late 80s/early 90s. I came from a solid background (see previous) but we didn't have much money so I went to a pretty low-performing local comprehensive (high?) school, at a time when drug culture and music were becoming inextricably linked. It's a period known as the "summer of love" ('wiki' it). The emergence of 'house' music and associated drugs was difficult to avoid for (not all but many) kids, myself included. I loved music - I had been bought up with music and had played the flute and piano to a fairly decent level, and as well as getting on with most people, I just so happened to be in with the 'in crowd'. At that point in time - so at the age of 15- we began to regularly use marijuana - the 'gateway drug'...

Are you still with me, mathsanxiety? You asked the question (and more to boot) and I'm in the process of answering - I'm just not sure that you're really that bothered by the response. Are you still with me?

mathanxiety · 15/08/2014 22:50

So you were a victim of peer pressure?
You know what is a really effective antidote to that? Knowledge of what is right and what is wrong (aka puritanical values) that you have managed to internalise because your mother took the trouble to discuss such matters with you. Failing that, knowledge that taking drugs is illegal, and the understanding that if you ever got caught your mother would not bail you out.

What about the rest of my questions?
Your opinion about breaking the law for instance.

MissBeans · 15/08/2014 23:00

Just wow! Grow up OP!!

MrsRuffdiamond · 15/08/2014 23:38

Let's take a specific scenario, e.g. that my daughter at aged 15 says to me

"Daddy, my friends are smoking something called pot

I'm sorry to trivialise the debate, but the idea that any self-respecting 15 year old would ever utter those words made me laugh, daddycool!

The more likely scenario is that you broach the subject of drugs with your 15 yr old, only to find that they are regularly exposed to a much wider variety of substances than you ever imagined, and that you are as horrified at the prospect as most parents of teenagers are.

TheBogQueen · 16/08/2014 11:26

Yy to being exposed to wide range of drugs. And they are much cheaper these days. Cocaine especially is much cheaper than in the 80s/90s. Which makes you wonder how well the criminalisation of certain drugs is working.

But legal highs - fast increasing problem too. And not much information available either.

Sleepyfergus · 16/08/2014 12:13

Only yesterday one of the news headlines (central Scotland) was about how deaths from illegal highs have sharply increased. Some of it because people are mixing drugs and it has disastrous consequences. But mainly because no-one knows what's in them or what effect they will have. Like a lot of drugs.

crashbandicoot · 16/08/2014 13:57

the procurement of cocaine leads to death and corruption
the procurement of diamonds to death and corruption ie blood diamonds.
the procurement of oil has been a justification for war killing 1000s if innocent people.
the clothes we wear are made in sweatshhops
I don't see therefore see why cocaine etc are singled out. and i believe that the making of certain substances eg marijuana could be likened more to a cottage industry if grown. at home.

for the record however i would never recommend a young person smoke weed because it has likely been the cause of schizophrenia in a number of people i know.

taking part in any activity involves a calculated risk - be it health wise or crime wise.

mathanxiety · 17/08/2014 04:34

But they are still illegal, which means we should not be buying drugs or using them, and we all have a choice as to what other murderous industry we will support even though it may still be legal. Plenty of people make the most ethical choices they can as consumers.

And just because there is a risk involved to literally breathing in the air around us doesn't mean it is therefore fine to go out and invite risk into our lives, and the more, and the more stupid, the merrier.

notquiteruralbliss · 17/08/2014 09:14

This thread seems to have gone off at a bit of a tangent. The original question was what the OP should do about her DD using the information she had about her parents drug use as leverage.

If OP was using coke and has stopped doing so, that maybe opens up the opportunity for a discussion about why she stopped. It certainly doesn't mean that she cannot advise her DD not to get drunk or to use drugs or that her DD should be allowed to blackmail her.

In my experience, teenagers will be exposed to all sorts of drugs anyway. We live in a tiny village near a market town just outside London and my DCs could easily buy anything they wanted locally. They are (I hope) sensible and well informed enough to make good decisions and to know what to do if someone gets into trouble.

daddydaddycool · 17/08/2014 21:55

mathanxiety - I'm checking in momentarily because we're off on holiday and I don't have time to pander to your need for answers (entirely euphemism-free, we're just going on holiday).

We're done my old fruit; it's the end of the line.

I hand you the 'moral midden' baton. Run with it. Run, Forrest, run...x

daddydaddycool · 17/08/2014 22:06

MrsRuffdiamond?

You've got me there; I was imagining what it would be like to be questioned by my (currently 4 and 6 year old) daughters in future about their exposure to drugs. Fifteen genuinely does seem a bit mature for them to be questioning me... what age would suit you? Shall we say eleven?

mathanxiety · 17/08/2014 23:01

'Are you still with me, mathsanxiety? You asked the question (and more to boot) and I'm in the process of answering - I'm just not sure that you're really that bothered by the response. Are you still with me?'
??

'I don't have time to pander to your need for answers'
??

So what was all that 'are you with me' business about then?
Are you not therefore 'in the process of answering'?
There I was, waiting with bated breath...

It's a weird little parallel universe indeed that you inhabit where you tell me you are in the process of answering and then when you realise you have run out of answers you tell me you will not 'pander' to my 'need for answers', as if I am the one with the problem here.

LOL at the revelation that you you have a 4 yo and a 6 yo yet you were telling me upthread all about your poor opinion of my tried and tested parenting approach to five DCs now aged 13, 16, 19, 21 and 24. I sincerely hope your children have more sense than you do.

MrsRuffdiamond · 17/08/2014 23:02

daddycool I think I would be getting all sorts of agencies involved if my 11 yr old came and told me they had friends who were smoking pot.

I do think your attitude towards drugs is inevitably coloured by the fact that your children are the ages they are. Like all of us do, you are imagining what your response might be to an entirely hypothetical situation from the safe position of knowing you're not going to be confronted by the reality any time soon.

I was just trying to point out that children these days are more drug-aware (for better or worse) at a younger age than ever they used to be, and the reality is that teenagers are probably more far more savvy about drug culture than you or I ever were, no matter how 'down with the kids' you think you are.

It is frightening how little input parents have in the secret life of teens. By the time they are old enough for you to start worrying about what's going on at parties and gatherings, they will already have perfected the withering look elicited by any attempt to warn about the dangers of drugs. They will already know it all, and think themselves invincible, as we all do at that age.

It's just that although you feel confident about your own neatly structured and self-contained drug use, like I am about my limited social drinking, I reckon that where your children are concerned, when they reach the age when exposure to drink and drugs is routine, you will feel as uneasy about it as I do.

FacebookWillEatItself · 17/08/2014 23:09

Not sure what you want us to say really OP. Confused

You sound like one of those parents who smokes but goes through the roof when they find their child smoking, because you can't practice what you preach

She is embarrassed/disgusted/disappointed by you, or perhaps she's just confused and hurt by blatant hypocacy and mixed messages. Either way she is letting you know she refuses to be dictated to about what is and is not a sensible way to behave by people who are hypocrites.

Sounds fair enough to me.

Hakluyt · 17/08/2014 23:12

Why am I imagining daddydaddycool in one of those hats that Pete Dochety wears and Converse, even though he's 45 and an accountant?