DD has lied and gone against wishes with XP's support re: a trip abroad - WWYD?

[ElizabethFailer]

Ok - so DD's school is one of those ones that 'offers' a really expensive trip abroad to NY - basically costing an arm and a leg. DH and I said that we can only do for one what we can do for the other children, of which we have 4, so forking out for what would eventually come to £8000 is not doable (the trip would be £2000 with equipment, so that times 4...). DD and DS1 are from my previous relationship, DS 2 and 3 I had with DH. We also said the money would be far better spent on learning to drive. The 'aim' of this trip is to go to Broadway, go to an art gallery and go shopping. All of which could be done in London for £100 + spending money. Instead, this trip is £1000 + spending money for the week, food etc.
We said for her not to apply, as we wouldn't be able to let her go if she got in.
DH has just found out that she's applied, got in, and her dad is paying for her to go. Bearing in mind that XP doesn't pay his full maintenance proportion as apparently he can't afford it, we're furious that a) she's gone behind our back, applied and lied about it b) he's using the trip as a popularity contest.
There is nothing advantageous about going on this trip other than the kudos of going, and we just think it doesn't teach DD about working for things she wants - it just teaches her to run to her Dad when she disagrees with our decision.
Legally, it's also tricky as he doesn't have LPR, so if he's signed a form to give her permission to go, it's illegal. But WTF do we do now? If I stick to my guns, I'm the bad guy again, saying no, but if I back down and let her go, she's getting her own way after being sneaky about it!?

I see that and would feel the same I think. It's so hard at this age though, because if you make her feel like a liar, she may well become one. I'm a big believer that people live up (or down) to expectations. Really hard, and I feel for you. But for me her age tips the balance to benefit of the doubt. Ask yourself what's more important - her turning out to be someone you love and respect, or punishing her for this lie. They call imo for different approaches.

But don't you think that, to a certain extent, you forced her to be a liar when you unreasonably told her not to discuss an important issue (to her) with her other parent?

And I went to NY for 5 days, and it was brilliant - museums, galleries, iconic buildings and monuments. I get that it wouldn't be your choice of holiday but that doesn't mean everyone - or your XH, or your DD - have to agree. Travel always broadens horizons and is never wasted IMO.

I can't think of a valid reason to say no really, if someone else is paying.

But why can't she get what she wants when her father is prepared to pay for it for her?

The only reason she can't have it is because you have decided that. Not because you can't afford it. Not because there is anything inherently dangerous about the trip itself. Not because it clashes with any other pre-existing plans. But just because you decided to say 'No'.

I'm sure there are many chances in life to show that she won't always get what she wants. Most days are full of them, IME. But this is something that she can have, because her father is prepared to give it to her.

I honestly think you've picked the wrong issue to put your foot down on here. And I think if you keep trying to insist that she is in the wrong then you're just going to look petty.

You told her not to ask her father, and are annoyed that she spoke to him about it anyway.

And yet you're annoyed at her father for suggesting that she didn't mention it to you, when he filled out the form and paid the deposit.

She either ought to be 100% honest with both parents, or it's ok for either of you to suggest she is selective about what she discusses with the other. You're not being consistent. You're not being fair. If I was 15, I'd pretty quickly reach the conclusion that you are just being arsey for no reason.

I get that you are angry with him for all kinds of reasons, and stressed about family life, again for valid reasons. But you're not making any conclusive points about why she can't go, beyond "I said so and I'm not changing my mind"

I cannot understand your viewpoint at all OP. If my DC wanted to go on a school trip I couldn't afford, the first thing I would do is recommend they ask their father.

I would be overjoyed that he was paying.

It almost sounds like you are jealous of your DD.

The point about PR being a legal technicality was not that this meant he could or should sign forms instead of you, of course he cannot.

What I meant was, had your DD been born a couple of years later, he would automatically been granted PR. This means you would be legally obliged to consult him in major decisions regarding your DD's life. The reason the law changed is to recognise the fact that children have the right to a relationship and support from both parents. That is to say, that your DD is entitled to the support and involvement of her father. So, to say he does not have PR, therefore he cannot be involved in this decision is a legal technicality, it is not a tenable moral position. Your DD has a moral right, and were she a few years younger, would have a legal right, for her father to be consulted.

I think the issues are more to do with your xH, as you want to cut him out of big decisions as you are annoyed at his lack of regular financial contribution. I wonder what would happen if you took the view that DD had the right to have her dad involved (the basis of the law now). I am not talking about signing paper, I am talking general decisions. Are you going to suggest he can't have a say in her uni choices as he has no PR? (I am fairly sure your current DH doesn't either, so that would exclude him too, if that was really your point).

Tell them that they can go or you will help pay for their driving lessons. And let them decide. A lot of people aren't fussed about learning to drive at 17

Ok I have to ask, you say in an earlier post you were looking at taking her to comic con for her birthday but now say you were. Is she going to miss her birthday treat because she's getting a trip to NY? :(

Finally I agree with comment up thread that said, how can you insist she's 100% honest with you when you ask her to be selective about information with her dad. You're making her lie by omission. You can't have it both ways.

I think you need to relax your principles on this one, OP. Look on the bright side - your DD's father is paying for her to do something she really wants to do and will help her grow up. That in itself is good both for their relationship and for her.

You will not be able to control your DD for much longer and this is really not a battle worth fighting.

I feel that a few posters here are being a little harsh. OP doesn't sound controlling to me at all. Teenagers can be very pushy in order to get what they want.
You should allow your daughter to go on the trip, but explain how she went about it the wrong way. She should have told you she was asking her Dad to pay. Try to keep communication open. These teenage years can be as tricky for children as for their parents. Tel her you are happy for her to have other opportunity but try to help her understand why she went about it the wrong way. I've no idea why schools offer such expensive trips ! I always feel school holiday trips cost far more than if you were booking it yourself. They should be able to get discount for large groups I think.
Take a deep breath.

I don't think the OP's DD went out about getting the trip paid for in the wrong way! In her circumstances I would have expected any child to do the same.

I strongly suspect, from what the OP has said about her ex, that if she had told her DD to ask her father and her DD had said "mum said to ask you" then her father would have said No. He's only doing this to get one over on the OP. He has done this to abet the DD in her deceit, because he knows it will piss the OP off.

And in all honesty, I think that is the biggest issue here, not even the DD lying. It's the fact that the ex still has the power to create such tensions in the OP's household, and the fact that the DD has been lying only adds to that.

Reading the first two posts from the OP it does rather sound as if the 'discussion' about the trip was really the OP telling her DD all the reasons why she thought the trip was impossible and a waste of time and didn't really give her DD the opportunity to make a case or for an actual discussion of the pros and cons to take place.

"We were reasonable enough to 'discuss' NY, but when I pointed out our reasons for saying 'no', she just clammed up and stopped talking about it."

If the DD thought that the trip was a very exiting opportunity (which most teenagers would think, especially if they have traveled very little) then having that dream trampled on might well make them very resentful indeed, likely to deny having applied and feeling like the the only thing to do was to turn to alternative sources. I'm not at all surprised she clammed up and didn't talk about the trip again.

That's not to say that her dad has behaved well and it must be incredibly annoying to be so short of money you can't buy clothes for your children and have so much money being spent on what seems a trivial matter. However I really think that you need to start treating her in a more adult way, both in expecting more from her and allowing her to talk without having your viewpoint dominate.

Oh and having lived in both NYC and London, really a day trip to London and a stay in NYC are not comparable. Most people find NYC a very exiting place to visit (and of course Americans love London too). That's not to say that spending a large amount of cash for a very short visit is the best way to go, but I can't see that your DD could possibly save up for anything vaguely comparable in the foreseeable future.

I'm surprised you didn't ask your ex to contribute in the first place to be honest (and if he is under paying you need to go through csa / a solicitor to correct this). I think you should absolutely let your dd go on the trip. You don't have to pay anything now - don't stop her out of principle.

I have a dd aged 11 from my first marriage. And a toddler with my now dh. Dd gets to do a lot of fun stuff ds probably won't be able to do because to be blunt her dad has a lot of money - he lives in the USA and is very wealthy. He pays for all her school trips and she goes out to the USA for half the summer holidays and goes on fantastic trips whereas myself, ds and dh haven't been on a holiday at all, not even a caravan or a tent in the UK.

Unfortunately that's life a bit when you have a blended family. It can't always be equal. You do try but sometimes it isn't.

Agree with amuminscotland

Looks like your DD is caught in the crossfire between you and XH

You cannot dictate to DD what she an talk to her dad about.

Also, in blended families all kids are not going to be treated 100% equal. You try to be fair, but if one of the dads pays, and the other doesn't... Soit. The others have a dad who is around more!

This isn't really any different to a toddler playing off one parent against the other.
Asks Mum - Mum says no.
Goes and asks Dad - doesn't tell Dad that Mum said no (or in this case, probably did but Dad doesn't care) - Dad says "of course you can!"

IF it was a toddler situation, people would be advising against allowing her to play parents off against each other. Why is it ok because she's a teenager?

Because in this case Thumb, the ops reason originally for disallowing the trip was because of not being able to afford it. The same situation as a toddler would be mummy said no to an ice cream because she's got no money on her, dad has the dosh so buys the ice cream. Not seeing an issue with that. :)

Exactly as ragbag says. Plus as a teenager they should be organising their own communications with the non resident parent. It would be more like playing off one against the other if it was between the dh and the op - the ex is just making a decision based on what the dd has told him.

No, she said she couldn't afford it for all 4 DC 'we can only do for one what we can do for the other children, of which we have 4.'

Two of those DC have a different father and banning them from asking him is deeply unfair. It's never going to be a level playing field. Your two youngest children get to live in a house with both their parents.

I would be livid with my dd if she did that, I really sympathise op!

It also depends what message 'stuck' with her DD about why she couldn't go - if your main arguement was the money, you couldn't afford it, and it was a waste of money, and there were better things that could be done to enrich her life withthe same money, not "even if it was free, this is why I wouldn't want you to go" - then the message she'll have got is "the problem is the money"

She solved the problem. It won't cost you anything and it's not your money being wasted even if you think it's a waste of money.

You didn't say "I don't want you going on a school trip to another country without me" or "I don't want you doing a long haul flight." or "I don't like New York and don't want you going there." or anything wrong with the actual trip that wsan't related to the cost and how the money could be better spent, then she's unlikely to have taken away there's anything wrong with it other than the cost.

The tensions between you and her Dad aren't always fully understood by teens, esp if you split up when they were young (so they don't fully remember it) and you've been careful about not discussing maintenence and money in front of her. Does she know that he's not paying full maintenence? to you it's not on he's done this but not offered money for boring things they need, but would she understand that her dad is underpaying and that's why you are skint, she might just think that you're skint because she's part of a large family. (Let's face it, pretty much every family I know with 'normal' jobs with more than 3DCs in it are skint, regardless of maintenence issues!)

thanks everyone for your comments - some more helpful than others,but then, perhaps I haven't explained it as well as I should have done. I'm sorry I've been away for so long, but it's been a busy evening and day, and DD or DS have been around me for the vast majority of it.

I'm actually too upset, and too tired, to reply properly right now. I just wanted to acknowledge that I've read your comments, and will come back and reply properly when I can.

Well I have read through and feel very sorry for DD. She has every right to speak to her father about things, you cannot forbid it. The issues there are between you OP and your exH aren't her problem, equally she didn't ask you to have more children so they and their upkeep aren't her responsibility either. She lives with three disabled family members and I suspect she deserves a break. I hope that in your shoes I would be pleased for her.

Does your DD know that your ex has not paid maintenance?

I really feel for your dd . it sounds like you have said no to the trip just because you can.

I feel sorry for you too, OP, as you must be run ragged and trying to do your best in a situation which must seem unfair.

This may come under one of the unhelpful comments in your mind, but at one point in my long and tortuous (ongoing) separation process with xH2, I sought a second opinion on the legal process from the best family lawyer I could find. Apart from confirming the tack my own solicitor was taking was the best one, she made the following point. It was my responsibility as a parent to do the best I could to manage my relationship with my ex as best I could in the interests of dc. Now that relationship was, and is, enormously difficult and there is lots of unfairness in the way finances have ended up, so this did jar. My instinctive reaction was 'but, but, but...'. In a sense, I think her point was that I had a responsibility to make the separation work for dc so that they maintained a relationship with both parents.

The other thing she said, which is quite hard, was not to be so involved. By which she meant, I think, was let the underlying issues with him go, and focus on dc now.

I think the pertinent questions here would be does your xH know that you can't afford school uniform? As far as I remember from the thread, you agreed to not increasing the maintenance when dc were with you more. Have you gone back and said, actually, this does not work, we need the proper amount? Have you tried saying, actually, my hands are full, I am not well myself, this is the practical help I need with the dc that are yours? Because at the moment you have the dc (no time to yourself) and also no money. You can ascribe all sorts of motives to your xH in paying for this trip, but unless you have had these conversations, you can't actually know that he would not have acted differently if he were in full possession of the facts and had the chance to behave like a responsible parent?

And finally, as I think I have said enough on this thread, my feeling in your situation would be to let it go. Ask your ex for full maintenance and what you need in future, but if the trip issue is upsetting you so much, let it go. It is really not worth it.