DD has lied and gone against wishes with XP's support re: a trip abroad - WWYD?

[ElizabethFailer]

Ok - so DD's school is one of those ones that 'offers' a really expensive trip abroad to NY - basically costing an arm and a leg. DH and I said that we can only do for one what we can do for the other children, of which we have 4, so forking out for what would eventually come to £8000 is not doable (the trip would be £2000 with equipment, so that times 4...). DD and DS1 are from my previous relationship, DS 2 and 3 I had with DH. We also said the money would be far better spent on learning to drive. The 'aim' of this trip is to go to Broadway, go to an art gallery and go shopping. All of which could be done in London for £100 + spending money. Instead, this trip is £1000 + spending money for the week, food etc.
We said for her not to apply, as we wouldn't be able to let her go if she got in.
DH has just found out that she's applied, got in, and her dad is paying for her to go. Bearing in mind that XP doesn't pay his full maintenance proportion as apparently he can't afford it, we're furious that a) she's gone behind our back, applied and lied about it b) he's using the trip as a popularity contest.
There is nothing advantageous about going on this trip other than the kudos of going, and we just think it doesn't teach DD about working for things she wants - it just teaches her to run to her Dad when she disagrees with our decision.
Legally, it's also tricky as he doesn't have LPR, so if he's signed a form to give her permission to go, it's illegal. But WTF do we do now? If I stick to my guns, I'm the bad guy again, saying no, but if I back down and let her go, she's getting her own way after being sneaky about it!?

I have loads of sympathy OP. I think the trip sounds ludicrous. There is clearly nothing educational about it (teacher).

However, I think that you have to bite your tongue. Tell the school that your X is solely responsible for this trip and any costs incurred must be met by him.

Tell X and DD that you are unable to contribute financially.

Fwiw I think these holdays are ridiculous too newyork shouldn't imo be offered for a school trip and I would be harping on about It till she goes it must be hard for divorced parents who are not on the same wavelength, you can dissaprove and still let her go f her dad is going to pay

I will give my permission to go, but on the understanding that she starts taking more responsibility for herself - gets herself up, gets her own lunch, does her own washing, gets a part-time job, even. Does that sound reasonable?

I'm sorry, but you're coming across a bit 'martyrish' in how you treat your children. You expect them to show gratitude for the hard work you do for them. But at the same time, you're allowing her to act like a spoilt child yourself. Why on earth are you and DP working all hours, plus looking after disabled family members, and yet a 15yo girl isn't even expected to deal with the basics of life herself?

You can't really teach teens the value of money, or the hard work that is necessary for life. You have to show them. Her father shouldn't have to tell her to wash. Neither should you.

Teens can understand a great deal if it is expected of them. They can also act like spoilt children if that's all that's expected. You are treating her as if she is not capable of much, then getting annoyed when she proves you right.

Change the game. If she wants things you can't afford, she can get a Saturday job. Either way, she can take responsibility for herself, and for a share of the chores in the house.

And pursue your ex for the maintenance. Don't just moan about how he chooses to spend his money. If he is due to pay for his childrens keep, then make sure it happens.

Oh I think I might have recently done something similar to your exH.

I have Ds1&2 with my exH and ds3&4 with exP

Ds1 recently bought home a letter about a trip to France and Disney costing £500 or so all in. He had gone to his dad's straight from school that day (shared care 50/50) and his dad had said no as he couldn't afford it, so he had bought the letter to me. I said yes, and gave him the deposit and signed the form.

I will be paying for the trip, and clothes etc. exH doesn't mind though as he said he couldn't afford it so knows I don't expect any money from him towards it.

I don't think ds1 was sneaky or underhand asking me after his dad had said no, he accepted his decision and looked for other options (me!) his dad isn't annoyed or cross about it, we both understand that we might parent differently but that we try and do our best - if exH had phoned me and said that he really didn't want ds1 to go for whatever reason I would've accepted that and said no.

It's hard having children from different dads. I try and make things fair but it's impossible sometimes. Christmas, holidays, birthdays - a minefield!

This parenting blog just dropped into my inbox and made me think of you OP. It won't be to everyone's taste style wise! American. And is aimed at younger kids. But think it has some good thoughts in it.

To be honest, I'd be more shocked if she didn't ask her dad! I wouldn't see it as going behind your back, because you don't say anywhere that you told her not t ask her father. Therefore, she has done the logical thing!

She is a teenager, she wants to go on this trip. She has 2 houses, it stands to reason that if one said no, the other might say yes.

Your dd has managed to get him to pay out 2k for her! Fair play to her I say!

I just hate the way she's turning into a spoilt brat and there's little I can do about it. That is very harsh & very unjustified. How do you know he didn't ask her what was wrong (I assume she would have been upset) & she told, so he offered to pay?

We did specifically say that she wasn't to ask her dad - knowing that he would play the 'popular parent game', and that he has pleaded poverty to not being able to pay more maintenance, we thought it would be unfair of her to ask him to stump up the cash, which he's either fallen for, or knowingly chosen to do.
Thanks for the blog - I shall take a look in a minute.
It will all come out soon - I received the payment card this morning, so I will have to discuss it with her when she gets home. She's leaving on my 40th birthday, and the trip, including flights, is for five days, so taking two out for the travelling there and back, one for the jet lag, that leaves them two days there - I think they're seeing two shows and have a workshop and a trip to an art gallery, so I don't think there's going to be much time for sightseeing.
I think XP is thinking that this disparity in permission is going to cause a rift between us, and I think those of you who've said I need to minimise this are right - but dealing with this is going to be really tricky. He knew we'd said no, and is using it for popularity points with her.
SO, I've just talked to school and said that her dad is the one who's agreed to it, that we said no, so a) finance need to be aware of that so we're not held liable, and b) I need to sign any permission forms so that school has it's legal arse covered. (obviously not in those words!)
We're also going to go back to the CSA about the arrangements, and hold him accountable for the real amount of time that we each have the children - if he can afford £100 month extra for this, he can pay the proper amount of maintenance.
As to DD, though, it's tricky. Firstly, obviously, there's the issue that she and her dad have gone behind my back and lied by omission. Quite how to approach it is the difficulty - too harshly and it drives a wedge between us and she goes running to her dad's. Too gently, and she will just think it's ok to lie to us and will carry on doing so.

You say he knows you said no, but maybe he imagines you said no because you don't want to spend the money; rather than being opposed to it on any other grounds? It's reasonable from his perspective to think if he shoulders the cost, it's really no skin off your nose?

No, he knows we said no, not even if he (or my mum) pays for it, because a) it's not particularly of any educational value b) it's very expensive for what it is - boils down to £1000 for 2 days worth of experience for her + expenses. c) that money should and could be spent on things that DD and DS really need, like clothes and uniform - I had to take DS to a school event last night in a t-shirt and jeans that he was bursting out of, and shoes that had heels worn right through, and I can't afford to get him new ones at the moment - I was embarrassed for him. (He has just gone through a growth spurt, and I have just forked out £100 for him to have new clothes for camping trip, but they've been left at his dad's mysteriously disappeared.)
I know categorically that he told DD to 'not lie to your mum, but just don't tell her'. That's not on, but again, it places me in a position where I now have to tell him I know about the trip, that I know he told her to lie to me - he's paid the deposit, so it's quite clear they've done this together, and he's signed permission forms he shouldn't have done. I know his lack of lPR is a technicality, but it places the school in a precarious position if anything should happen.

I agree that she went behind your back, since you had specifically said not to ask her dad. But then, you have to ask yourself how it looked in her eyes that you would say that. Why shouldn't she ask her father for something which she wants? What is so terrible about any child doing that? It will have looked to her that you were being deliberately awkward, rather than it being genuinely something which ought not to be discussed with him.

I honestly think it was an unfair restriction to put on her at the outset, so I don't think 'telling her off' for doing it is going to cut much ice.

If children and teens don't understand why something has been vetoed, then the telling off is likely just to be put into the category of arbitrary parental unfairness rather than having the desired effect. The 'wedge' is being driven in just as much from your side as from his if you set arbitrary restrictions on how she interacts with him.

You need to work through why you don't want her to ask him for things, and think about whether you are projecting your own financial issues with him onto the agenda.

If he wants to waste his money, it's his to waste. If he chooses to waste it on a frivolous trip for his teenage daughter, why shouldn't he?

That is totally separate (in her eyes at least) from your disagreements over maintenance payments, and how hard you are having to work to make ends meet.

You have to separate out the two issues.

Maintenance needs to be reconsidered, and insisted on.

But how he spends any other money he has is up to him. You can't simply veto him choosing to spend it on something because you think it is a waste.

I think you are projecting (understandable) dislike of XP onto DD. You are making a few assumptions about things she should or shouldn't have done based on what you think XH should/shouldn't do.

The maintenance situation is not her fault, or responsibility to manage.

Whether or not you and DH choose to spend that much on a family holiday is irrelevant, and again not her responsibility to manage.

Why shouldn't she ask her father? If you are not able to pay that is fine. But is there an actual reason why she shouldn't ask? I feel like you are annoyed with her because she didn't go against 'Disney Dad' tactics. Did she actually lie outright or defy you outright?

I also wonder why you aren't pleased that your DD has an opportunity for a fabulous trip at no expense to you (assuming Disney Dad ponies up). Judging by the post it sounds she has a lot to contend with.

I agree with you about the trip though- no educational merit!

Xpost with AMuminScotland a bit I think!

If he wasn't paying for this trip would he be more likely to pay for new trainers and clothes for DS? It doesn't sound like it

You're right AMIS, I need to separate the issues. Of course I can't dictate what he spends his money on, but when the routine last changed so that the children were going to be here for more time, he said he was worried about having to pay more maintenance, so DH and I assured him that we wouldn't go to the CSA with the change in arrangements - just so he wouldn't/couldn't say that we were changing the routine for money reasons. So, instead, we scrimp to get by while he obviously has more cash than sense, to spend this kind of money on a four-day trip for one child. I'm especially cross because (yet again) DH is paying for things because XP is not honest enough to pay his fair share, but works things so that we look like the shit bags, and he looks like the amazing dad that pays for trips to NY.

BTW - another thought, do you think your ExH is sort of relying on the fact you are against it not just for the money's sake? If it's a case that he thought you'd say no even if he agreed to pay, do you think he's assumed he's not actually going to have to pay out? He gets the kudos for being the cool dad that said yes, without having to spend any money on it, and gosh DD, if your mum would just let you, you know I'd let you go and pay for it...

I'd let her go, and then push for the correct level of maintenance.

She has lied, MJD - she hasn't told me that she applied, got in, that her dad's signed the permission forms and paid the deposit! And lying about a £1000 trip to NY is a bit bigger than saying she's going around to a mate's house and going to to a boyfriends (although it's not like we're the strictest parents ever - she regularly has friends, male and female, to stay over and they take over the front room for the night, she's allowed to friends' houses for sleepovers without stipulations, and we are (or at least were) planning a trip for her to go to Comic Con for her birthday in October with her friends unaccompanied, so it's not like we don't recognise her responsible actions with independence.
Why shouldn't she go? Well, aside from the above - just because she wants to go, doesn't necessarily mean she has the right to go - the website that rootypig posted goes along those lines. We just feel the time flying, the time recovering from jet lag, the actual activities they're planning - it's just not worth the money or the hype. It's touted as a 'once-in-a-lifetime' opportunity, which is bollocks. All she has to do is get a decent job and she can pay for herself to go, as an adult, for a longer amount of time, probably for less money, and have a better experience. I don't want her to go and think, ok, I've done that, now I've visited and experienced the peak of civilisation, and I don't need to travel any more - I know it sounds melodramatic, but that is very much the attitude of the area and the people who live in the town.

That's what we're doing Mary - school have said it's ok for DD's dad to be held accountable - if he doesn't pay the full amount, she loses her place, and doesn't go, and he loses his money.

By telling your dd to not ask her father you are IMO putting her in a very unfair position. How much maintanence he does or doesn’t pay isnt’t your dd’s responsibility, and the fact he doesn’t have parental responsibility is a technicality which tbh you are a bit petty getting hung up on because at the end of the day he is her parent who clearly does have a relationship with his children, even if he doesn’t pay you as much towards them as he should.

But your dd is now caught in the middle of your disagreements with your xh and that is unfair. Her relationship with her father and what happens on his watch is theirs and tbh you have no right to dictate what she can and can’t ask for. It could in fact be seen as trying to undermine their relationship. Imagine how you would feel if your dd came home and asked for something and said her dad had said no and not to ask you either because the answer was still no.

You need to let them get on with their relationship, and you also IMO need to get him to get PR – it is a mere technicality after all and he should be able to consent to things regarding his own children with whom he does have a relationship.

This weekend my xh is taking ds to two expensive events. Now in fairness to xh he does pay maintanence so I don’t have that kind of issue with it. But he does also earn considerably more than I do, and as such is in a far better position to be able to afford expensive trips/holidays/things which I simply cannot. And of course sometimes I wish I had more money so that we could go on more trips/I could buy more things ds needs/I wasn’t always in a position of having to say no. But it would never occur to me to tell ds that he shouldn’t ask his dad for x/y because I can’t afford it... We have of course had the conversation along the lines of that ds has grown up in a household where money wasn’t an issue, but now that has changed, and it’s expected that he gain an understanding and appreciation of the value of money, even to the point he shouldn’t just expect his dad to fork out because he can, but if xh can afford to then whether he does or not is his business not mine.

And tbh I also can’t bring myself to get hung up on whether children should go on trips because they don’t contain educational value. A trip to New York is exciting. If I could go on one, I would, thus if my ds had the opportunity I wouldn’t deny him that. Although I do agree that school trips are prohibitively expensive.

And yes, MJD, this is it - for years, he's sat back while I've paid for uniform and clothes, paying a pitiful amount of maintenance. Of course there is a long history of LOTS of money being owed to us - what divorce or separation doesn't have those problems? But DH and I are trying to move on from that - we're never going to get that money back and it has nothing to do with this issue.
But we do feel that DD has behaved like she's 'entitled' to go - and this is not good for her. However, it's knowing how to talk to her without getting angry at her for lying and going behind my back, without her coming out of this thinking that every time I say no to something she can just do whatever the hell she likes, that there are no repercussions to lying, and without thinking that the way to address a problem is to ignore it and it will go away - the lack of communication from her and her dad about this is a prime example of how XP deals with problems - if you don't discuss them, just do what you like, ignore it and it will magically resolve itself.

Oh gosh tricky that she's emulating, consciously or not, behaviour that you have a long history of struggling with from XP. How aggravating for you. I do still think despite the echoes with the emotional history in with her dad, this is fairly typical of most 15 year olds. How on earth do schools expect parents to deal with this? it's just a shockingly bad idea to dangle something so tempting, that speaks so perfectly to pop culture at the moment, you know, all the selfies on the trip they'll all be posting or whatever, and some kids be able to go and some not. I remember being desperate to do things as a teenager because if you weren't there, you weren't in on all the laughs and the jokes. This is just to the nth degree!

I would express your dissatisfaction but not be too heavy handed, and quietly set about rectifying all the other things that are justifiably bothering you. Yes, she can be getting herself up, making her lunch, getting a job. Suggest all these things and put in place ways to help her eg DD, I think you're old enough to be getting up in the morning, so we've got you a little alarm clock, away you go. Or, DD, how would you feel about making your own lunches, if you do younger siblings' then we'll be open to your input on the shopping list for the supermarket. Or DD, would you enjoy having a wee job (she could earn spending money for the trip?) if you want to spend an evening putting together a mini CV, we'd be happy to help you.

I think, wannabe, you're missing the point. It's NOT about the money itself - although, yes, it's very expensive, and doesn't offer value for experience. This is about DD learning that she can't ALWAYS get what she wants. It's also proved that XP has no respect for me or DH, and our decisions. IF the roles were reversed and he had said no to a trip then we would respect that, Lpr or not. It's also the lack of discussion - they didn't talk to us, email us, text us, about how they felt, they just went and did it. He's just trying to prove that he can make decisions without my approval. And yes, LPR may be a technicality, but it's not a 'mere' technicality, it's a legal one. If DD goes, and has an accident, who is liable for the bill? ME and DH. If she goes without my permission - the school will illegally be taking her out of the country - so it does have ramifications that he has illegally signed a document. If I could have given him LPR before now - I would have done - but it's HIS responsibility to do it, not mine! I can't force him to go down to the town magistrate any more than I can stop him from paying for this trip, it seems!

Yes, rootypig, I think that's the way to go, but I still don't think it would emphasise how important it is that she's lied to me over something quite huge. I've tried so hard to stop her from becoming as deceitful and sneaky as I was with my parents - who were a lot more restrictive, controlling and would never see anything from my point of view, but it seems ZP doesn't give a crap that he's teaching her to lie to us, as long as he gives his little girl her 'trip of a lifetime'.

who were a lot more restrictive, controlling and would never see anything from my point of view

Think you need to look in the mirror op

The words you use to describe your own child are not very kind.