DD has lied and gone against wishes with XP's support re: a trip abroad - WWYD?

[ElizabethFailer]

Ok - so DD's school is one of those ones that 'offers' a really expensive trip abroad to NY - basically costing an arm and a leg. DH and I said that we can only do for one what we can do for the other children, of which we have 4, so forking out for what would eventually come to £8000 is not doable (the trip would be £2000 with equipment, so that times 4...). DD and DS1 are from my previous relationship, DS 2 and 3 I had with DH. We also said the money would be far better spent on learning to drive. The 'aim' of this trip is to go to Broadway, go to an art gallery and go shopping. All of which could be done in London for £100 + spending money. Instead, this trip is £1000 + spending money for the week, food etc.
We said for her not to apply, as we wouldn't be able to let her go if she got in.
DH has just found out that she's applied, got in, and her dad is paying for her to go. Bearing in mind that XP doesn't pay his full maintenance proportion as apparently he can't afford it, we're furious that a) she's gone behind our back, applied and lied about it b) he's using the trip as a popularity contest.
There is nothing advantageous about going on this trip other than the kudos of going, and we just think it doesn't teach DD about working for things she wants - it just teaches her to run to her Dad when she disagrees with our decision.
Legally, it's also tricky as he doesn't have LPR, so if he's signed a form to give her permission to go, it's illegal. But WTF do we do now? If I stick to my guns, I'm the bad guy again, saying no, but if I back down and let her go, she's getting her own way after being sneaky about it!?

OP my DC is very young, so I haven't confronted this yet, I am speaking from my experience with my parents (so me in the position of your daughter) - that much is probably already clear.

I think it must be really hard to work hard and do without yourself, to give seemingly ungrateful kids more and more. Perhaps you're giving too much, and getting too little yourself? of course there's a minimum standard of care, but beyond that, give only what you can give freely. Though I think you should let DD go on this trip and not make a huge issue of it, I also believe that kids can get by with very little and be none the worse (probably the better).

It must be utterly aggravating to still have XP in your life, since you do things so differently. But all you can do is parent your DC the way you want to under your roof, according to your principle. Parenting in reaction to him, or to compensate for his parenting, can't make you feel good, because it has conflict at its heart, and will lead you to strange places.... build your relationship with your daughter. Are there positive experiences you could share with her that you would both enjoy that embody the values that you want her to have?

It's not costing you a penny, why are you arsed?

I think your bring mean. 'Popularity contest'? What teenage girl wouldnt want to go to NY?

You can't expect your ex to treat his dd as the same as children that are not his.

Your dd sounds like a normal teenager, your financial situation is not your dds responsibility.

Another thought, OP - perhaps thinking about the trip differently would help you to accept it. Travel has been the most enriching privilege of my life, I have no money in the bank but have never regretted a penny spent on flights. This will open up a new world to DD, it may inspire and excite her. Perhaps you could become more involved with the idea of it, by researching the city with her ahead of time, devising little extra bits and pieces that she could do while there - I don't know, make a digital diary or blog post using her favourite snaps, whatever. Is she interested in art and theatre herself? look at the online catalogues of the museums she's going to visit, and look up some criticism of the work (sounds very stuck up but actually helps art and history dunces like me get much more out of staring at paintings).

Having a talk with a 15yo girl about why she felt the need to go behind your back and ask her Dad isn't likely to be productive of anything but "I wanted to go, you wouldn't let me and said you couldn't afford it, so I asked Dad and he said yes". At that age it's all about what she wants, at that point, no other consideration needed in her view.

What you can do is explain why you're hurt and disappointed that she felt that it was an ok thing to do, and that you are sad that she only consulted her own wishes and behaved rather like a toddler in playing off one parent against the other. But she won't like that either.

I think, since you can't affect what your ex chooses to spend his money on and he's clearly decided to stick this one to you by paying for something you've refused her, you just suck it up and let her go. See it as back maintenance for her, or something - if he had been paying maintenance, you might have had more money available to fund something like this, so try and think of it in a different way.

Although i entirely see your point that it's a shocking "waste" of money when you don't have much! And you no doubt could have used it to much better effect.

rootypig, you're right - I can't parent in reaction to him/compensate for his parenting, but I'm placed in the situation where I have to, constantly, or I just let them go and live with him, and - without going in to the emotional ramifications for them and for me, of separating from my children - let him 'drag' them up. It's quite difficult for me to have any kind of 'experience' with the kids, as I'm mostly house or bed bound, but on occasion we manage to organise days out for trips, so something worthwhile might be manageable after my next surgery.
Softly - I realise every teenager wants to go to NY, I just don't think she should just get to go if she wants to - especially as her father can't apparently afford the extra maintenance every month. And as I said previously - this is not ABOUT the money. In fact, if it was say, to go and see the Northern Lights, it would be different - but there is nothing in the trip that they couldn't do in London - so it's a 'flash-the-cash' for a UCAS experience, nothing more.

Surely there is a very real chance that this will come back to you when the time nears and EXP thinks her mum won't want her to suffer the bitter disappointment of not going and will stump up after all.

I do have a lot of sympathy for your position OP, I hope that came across in my first post. I make it sound easy and it's not. I suppose I'm trying to say, don't get caught up in it, or whatever the parenting equivalent of don't sweat the small stuff is. Paint in broad strokes. My parents saw the bad in me, rather than the good - that's how it felt, at least - and honestly it has crippled my adult life. I would caution any parent about going the same route (of criticism and conflict), no matter how constrained the circumstances. Partly because it just doesn't work, anyway.

It sounds as though there are various currents and counter currents - XP's influence, money is tight for you, you have disability to contend with. Hard as it is, try not to bring that stress and tension into your interactions with DD, but deal with whatever the issue at hand is.

I agree that at 16 she can be getting herself up and taking care of herself, yes, and at her age I was gagging for a job to spend the money on clothes! in fact a job might feel quite freeing for her. I wouldn't link it to this trip though, because it will sound like punishment to her. When these are things she should just be doing anyway, and may actually embrace.

XP sounds like a total pita, that goes without saying.

From her point of view, you said you couldn't afford it, and she's found a way to go that means you don't have to pay - she probably thinks it's a win:win scenario.

I'd let her go, but manage her expectations and explain that Dad will have to pay and may have not thought it through (euphemism for may not actually cough up), so not to be disappointed if it turns out he doesn't have money after all. Is she aware that he doesn't generally pay maintenance? I'm not sure whether pointing that out would help or not.

Talk to her about going behind your back, and make it clear you won't fund anything to do with the trip, spending money, clothes, equipment you mentioned all has to come from her dad, and you expect her to talk to him about total costs before hand.

Does she know he's not paid maintenance?

Fairness doesn't always mean exactly the same.

I think you should let her go.

O.k. so she went behind your back but she,s a teenager!

This trip will give her an amazing experience, wonderful memories and I think it,s a great opportunity to bond with her dsd - especially if he hasn, t always done his bit (maintenance).

Anyway you have no say in how her dad wants to spend his money

Oops! "bond with her dad"...

Another point, you keep saying she can do it all in London, no, she can't, she can go visit London and see a show, but London is not New York! I refuse to accept they'll go all that way and only go to a show, not also go sight seeing, experience a new city.

You can go to a show in pretty much every major city, if you do that when visiting an overseas city, that's not the only thing you've had from your trip.

She wants to visit NY, she has a chance to do that, and from what you've said, you'll never be able to afford to take her (and you don't seem to see the point of going).

Has she ever had a long haul trip before?

I agree let the dd manipulate her dad into stumping up. And allow the other child he has with you to do the same when their time comes. He owes you and his dc somehow, so (a) let him pay some of it and take the credit, and (b) accept it as him stepping up, paying his way a bit more.

Then at least you only have to worry about the dc you and your dp have together.

I would also thank your ex for doing this for dd, that it really means so much that he's funding the trip. Say that you'll keep him posted on updates and preparations, together with suggestions for expenses and extras, so that he can agree them with dd directly. Subtext: that he is fully responsible for the whole kit and and kaboodle.

However.., after the trip, put it in writing that dd's dad doesn't have the right to sign any forms and for them not to accept his signature on anything without your agreement.

I understand how you feel, on a lesser note, DD's dad bought her a £200 gift she already had, having not paid maintenance in five years.

I wonder, however, if you asked him in the first place if he could have paid, this would not have been an issue. Does your DH have PR for your DD? The fact that her dad doesn't is a legal technicality, presumably because her birth predates the legislation which would have given him it automatically. Your DD is entitled to the support of both parents and that seems to have been what she has sought; albeit in a somewhat clumsy and deceitful way. I wonder why she did not feel able to say directly.

It is a learning process for both of you, I think. Pursue your ex for proper maintenance, but also, I would say, consult him in any big spending decisions for your children with him so he has the opportunity to do things the right way. Be the better person and all that.

Is he going to give her any spending money? buy clothes and a suitcase etc. for her to take?

Is he likely to pay the first installment and then stop bothering? This is what would worry me the most, I suspect you would end up paying out most of the money if this goes ahead.

I wouldn't let her go as things stand. Two reasons:

Firstly, she lied to you. I wouldn't set a precedent either over the lying or thinking that running to him when you say no is effective.

Secondly, this isn't about her at all, it's about her father using her to get to you. Advise you shut this nasty behaviour down asap.

Suggest you tell him how delighted you are that he's now financially able to catch up on maintenance and you look fw to receiving the cash. Then I would consider discussing school trips with him.

I'm sure many of us have had to miss trips like this and £2K is rather a lot. She won't be the only one not going and I'd say it was neither significantly educational nor a trip of a lifetime. She'll sulk but that's what teens do.

I would let her go, but explain it is up to XP to pay for anything she needs (including spending money, passport?) for the trip, (and possibly the logistics of dropping/collecting too).

But also I think you need to contact the school:

They need to know that someone signed the permission form who didn't have legal responsibility to (do they know already your XP doesn't have responsibility?)
but you are happy for her to go
provided they give you a guarantee (in writing) that should XP fail to make the payments they will not come chasing you for them.

Having a talk with a 15yo girl about why she felt the need to go behind your back and ask her Dad isn't likely to be productive of anything but "I wanted to go, you wouldn't let me and said you couldn't afford it, so I asked Dad and he said yes". At that age it's all about what she wants, at that point, no other consideration needed in her view.

I think you underestimate 15/16 year olds actually Thumbwitch

Op - I think you will probably have to let your dd go on the trip. But I also think that if you have a calm but frank talk with her about all the circumstances and the impact on you all as a family I suspect that, whatever she admits, she won't actually enjoy the trip as much as she thinks she will. Teenagers DO have a conscience - they just don't admit it easily.

I think it's unfair that you're annoyed she asked her dad. I have a dss if he wanted a trip and we could afford it but his mum couldn't then we'd pay. I don't see the issue with that. Dss mum has two dsd's that would be unlikely to be able to go on the trips. That's unfortunate but not our concern surely.

Pr is a formality by the way, he could get it really easily if that's what you wanted to argue. Equally you say "we" are her legal guardians, no you and her dad are not you and your DH (unless he's adopted her or been given PR by you)

I don't think she was sneaky to discuss the trip with both parents, and I don't blame her one bit for accepting a generous gift from her father. It's just a shame she had to lie about the application because she knew you'd go mad.

I think you should be delighted that she is getting this amazing experience at no cost to yourself.

And don't overthink how the money could've been better spent because it's not yours so he can do what he wants with it.

If he really has done this to compete with you then you're playing into his hands by being so churlish.

Can't you just tell her you're delighted that she's going and start getting excited with her? One trip won't turn her into a spoilt princess you know.

Ds1s dad got out of paying maintenance one way or another all his life, if you have been through the csa and are still getting no joy then you just have to let the annoyance about it go.

Ds1s dad has always done this type of thing, fine let him do it. She will learn in her own time why he's doing it, and what side her bread is buttered on.

Ds1 is 19 now and knows exactly what his dad is, we had a few rocky years between 14-16 made worse by his dad's behaviour, but ime these types of dad can't keep it up indefinitely. He will start to break his promises etc at some point.

If you think he's doing it to make himself look better than you, or to get one over on you then stop giving him that chance! If you can't afford this type of thing be honest with her and tell her in future its okay to ask him. He will soon getfed up of it

Thanks everyone - I've read through all of these, but I'm a bit too tired to absorb it all properly right now, so I'll take a proper look in the morning.

Just throw your hands In the air And think well he is paying for it let him get on with it ,
teachng her not to be bloody sneaky is better for now than teaching her about the value of money,

Your other kids will be fine they will know her dad paid for it