Gay surrogacy

[Queenieoh]

My male gay best friend and his husband are using an American surrogate to have a baby. I am anti-surrogacy and finding it so hard to be supportive about it. I want them both to be happy but I really don't think this is the right thing to do. I know my opinion won't change their mind and most of our friends think surrogacy is fine. I guess I am not looking for advice, just some solidarity in the fact that buying a baby (for a huge sum of money) is wrong! They're even choosing the sex which is just so creepy IMO. Also, they're both very busy professionals so will undoubtedly have a nanny to raise the child... Why do people think they're entitled to have children?!

@NumbersGuy because there are some children in shit conditions doesn’t mean we can ignore the issues with surrogacy, and you are just focussing on the couple becoming a family, like they did with Magdalene laundries, no regard for how a child might feel being bought as a commodity and no regard for the birth mother.

What we should be doing is looking at all situations where there are children in shit conditions and trying to reduce them not to add to them

So you don’t have any answers to the many concerns raised on this thread? Your entire response is ‘well breeders suck, so let everyone else do what they want’?

As I said upthread, this is a common response on these type of threads and I think it speaks to the fact you know surrogacy is inherently problematic, so resort to ( irrelevantly) attacking natural conception instead.

The common response on these threads is your own. Echo chamber after echo chamber. Same old, same old thread. No genuine discussion. Even down to the ‘my best friend is having a baby through surrogacy. I can’t be their friend any more’. No genuine discussion allowed. We’ve heard it all before. And before long we’ll hear it again.

You are not wrong. Your friend is a selfish horrible person. I would stop being his friend. I really would. Surrogacy, is abuse. Just because you want something, doesn't mean you should have it. That is what adoption or fostering is for. Some people can't have a child, and they need to accept it. And they will probably pose with one of them topless in bed with the baby on their chest, as if they gave birth! These babies are just PROPS for these people in their lives, it's disgusting. And I say that for all people who use surrogacy, including Megan Trainor.

I will believe in surrogacy the moment a RICH WOMAN such as a celeb, acts as a surrogacy for a poor woman in Thailand. Instead of the other way around!!

If a best friend doesn't accept that their friend has an issue with abuse and exploitation, then damn right they are not a friend!

81,770 children in the care system

Foster carers are needed. But this couple is too lazy and selfish to be a foster carer. They want a designer baby, right down to SEX SELECTION, which is morally abhorrent to even the most liberal and so-open-my-brains-fell-out person.

but only 2,940 available for adoption

Only? ONLY?!??? ffs, just how many do you want to be available! It's larger than 50. 2,940 is an enormous amount! They have a bloody smorgasboard of choice! But no! They want to exploit the health, and life, of an impoverished person to create their designer baby replete with designer sex, as well! To say I think they are lower than low is an understatement! They want an accessory. Not a child.

I would never be friends with anyone who supported surrogacy. Just as I would not be friends with anyone who supported rape, murder, pedophilia, sex trafficking, child abuse or animal abuse. You either have values and know right from wrong, or you don't. Exploitation of women via surrogacy is one of the lowest things. Like I said, I will consider supporting surrogacy the day a rich person acts as a surrogate for a poor person wanting a child in a developing country. And as we all know, that aint EVER gonna happen!

This is just silly.

What has happened on this thread is that people who are against surrogacy have made a series of coherent arguments such as:

• there are no/insufficient safeguards on who purchases a child via surrogacy, in contrast to the vetting process to become an adoptive parent
• principled arguments against the use and commodification of women's bodies for another person's benefit
• practical arguments about the damage that can be caused to a woman's body through pregnancy and childbirth and regarding it as immoral to put a women through this for someone else to obtain a child
• Objections to a child being deliberately created to not know their mother (and possibly father)
• Concerns over the harm caused to the baby of being removed permanently from its birth (and possibly biological) mother at birth.
• Concerns over the increasing commercialisation surrogacy and reducing safeguards for surrogates
• Objections in principle to being to buy a child.

All of these are reasonable arguments, whether or not you agree with them. And mumsnet is not an echo chamber - it is an open public forum that anyone can engage in. If there is no discussion (actually there has been) that is not the responsibility of those who have made these arguments on this thread - its the responsibility of those who have failed to engage with these arguments. Throwing out obfuscation about ' well breeders do bad things too' is not engaging with aforementioned objections to surrogacy. Its avoiding them.

I adopted. And I know gay couples who adopted too. Good for them. They didn't decide that their desire for a child meant a biological child brought about through buying eggs off strangers and exploiting a poor woman in Colombia or wherever.

See Ryan and Matthew for example - they are all over social media with the baby they adopted last year. Somehow, despite less than 3k children being available to adopt, they did it!

But anyway, while I am anti surrogacy in principle, if a friend of mine actually did have a baby that way, I probably wouldn't reject them. I reckon it's a lot harder for the people who use surrogacy than they expect. I would want to be there for all of them.

Many posters have given thoughtful and constructive concerns about surrogacy and the risks for both mother and baby.

@ChangeIsDueYou have not responded to any of these very serious concerns.

Yes 2 men cannot have a biological child that is a fact. To have a child you need sperm to fertize an ovum and a uterus. 2 men can only produce one of those ingredients.

@CJones11 that is an unfortunate consequence of being in a gay couple. But no-one has the right to be a parent. All because the use of science and a woman’s womb can create a child doesn’t mean it should

That is not revolutionary news... no point did I state that two men can have a biological child. What I said was being gay should not be barrier to creating your own child, and that is a reason I am I support of consensual surrogacy.

@CJones11 what about the child? Who are you putting first in this scenario, the gay couple, the surrogate, the child? I also appreciate many couples don’t put the child first when creating a child in the usual way and that isn’t right either. Much more thought should be in place for many families before bringing a child into this world

That is why adoption exists. No one has a 'right' to a child. And no one has the right to buy/rent a woman's womb just because they are two men. Unfortunately if you're gay you need to accept the limitations, and adopt. That's it. End of story.

Legal avenues for surrogacy suggest otherwise. How many surrogate women have you spoken to about their perception of what they are doing?

How many surrogate children have you spoken to @CJones11?

I've taught one, actually. A wonderful, well-rounded young girl who was so eloquent in expressing how she came into existence. Birth mother was a friend of her mother who carried her because her mother couldn't.

I have also read experiences of surrogate children and truly believe surrogacy does not automatically cause harm and trauma.
There is more risk of harm and trauma to the birth mother. Which is why proper procedures and care plans should be mandatory. Consent that is not derived from desperation. There are bad unethical ways to conduct surrogacy, but there are also wonderful ways. I would certainly consider being a surrogate and do not consider myself vulnerable or desperate.

Just because it's 'legal' does not make it right. Slavery was legal. Until 30 years ago, rape in marriage was legal.

Plenty. I've read harrowing accounts of what they went through. How many have you spoken to, and how many children of surrogacy have you spoken to?

See my previous reply...

Comparing surrogacy (when all parties are willing and consenting) to marital rape and slavery is disgusting. It only exploits women if the birth mother IS being forced. That is of course wrong. But many surrogates are completely willing.

There is no 'consent' in surrogacy. Not when it's a starving women in a developing country who needs money to eat. It's always the case that a poor woman will bear the child for the rich woman (or rich gay couple). There is an imbalance of power. It's disgusting that that you can't see that. It's an evil, abusive, demeaning and exploitive practice. And what is disgusting is that you posited the view that since something is 'legal' it's ok, and got annoyed when I pointed out how simplistic and nonsensical that is.

@CJones11 you say that you have thought about signing up to be a surrogate? How would your children feel about you giving a child away? How would they feel if you had health issues after giving birth that impacted you as a parent?

You are framing all surrogacy journeys as a rich woman taking advantage of a poor, desperate woman. That may happen in soem instances and is exploitation. But why is it so hard to understand that not all surrogacy looks like this? There are plenty of high-profile surrogates, and many who do it for someone they know and love. There is consent in these circumstances.

There are more high profile people using surrogates than being surrogates @CJones11

The narrative of it being 'giving a child away' would have to be discussed with my children so that they know the child doesn't belong to us. I would speak to them and teach them that I am loaning the baby to help it grow and develop so it can be reunited with its parents. My children are very young right now, my eldest may be more aware but we have already read books about different family set ups and this would just be another opportunity for them to learn and see the world differently to their own experience.

If I were to become a surrogate, it would have to be when my children are much older and me being in good health to be considered low risk. I am fortunate to have had 3 healthy pregnancies and wonderful births, including my twins. I would plan appropriate support during and after to limit the chance of any mental health issues.

It is a big decision to weigh up and not something one goes into lightly. Yet, if someone came to me and asked me if I would consider carrying their child, I would absolutely do what I could to be in the best possible situation to do so.

Someone I went to school with had a baby via her mother being her surrogate. She had cervical cancer at 18. She has also gone on to adopt another child. Their family is beautiful and no less than any other just because they took unconventional means to get there.

This, and all the sanctimonious “oh surrogacy is wonderful” nonsense is something I could never ever agree with.
purchasing a human is vile.
as per previous threads, the fact there is a legal age limit before you can remove a puppy or a kitten from it’s parent, but humans… soon as they exit the womb… what does the purchaser want?