Ageism Armageddon: but not as you might expect

[mm47]

I’ve absolutely had enough of MN posters’ so-called anti ageism. What about accepting we are all getting older, rather than vicious denial? If people genuinely felt at ease with getting older- possibly even grateful because - what is the alternative? - they could hear when someone just wanted some advice.

Surely an anti ageist attitude means to feel positive about age and ageing whilst not denying but accepting that growing older has challenges (in style and elsewhere). Style In anything has to do with facing the truth and finding the best outcome.

I’ve just read a thread where - to paraphrase - somebody aged 56 described herself as feeling like she dressed like a granny and asking for style advice. She was being honest about how she felt. But actually most of the thread was - instead of people offering positive, helpful and supportive advice - a complete rugger scrum of posters who wanted to give this poor woman a hard time and say age is irrelevant and I am this age (older than the OP) and I do this etcetc. Poor woman, I doubt she was expecting such vitriol, she just wanted an update on her uniform!

I’m 60. I’m not young. I kid myself I’m middle aged but I don’t want to live until I’m 120 so in other words… I’m getting on. There is nothing wrong with getting older but I enjoy getting dressed and trying to look good and included in this is a desire to show that I am aware of contemporary taste. I will pick and choose what suits me.

if it weren’t for MN rugger scrums I would definitely describe a lot of my style screw-ups (of which there are many!) as frumpy or grannyish or mutton dressed as lamb. The thing is, I might be 60 but granny (whoever she is in the style context) is always at least 70 years older than me….

i can’t be alone in thinking that even if I were a grandmother, grannyish doesn’t apply to me, it’s a description for a granny who existed in the 1950s.

Runs for the Anderson shelter….

I know what you mean! It's one of those kneejerk things that people leap on. You're not allowed to say frumpy, mutton dressed as lamb etc (ESPECIALLY not frumpy!) The thing is though, it has a specific meaning and is useful. I know exactly what is meant by it and what people are trying to avoid (including me) when trying to dress stylishly.

"Frumpy" isn't even really about age. I remember in my 20s a friend complaining that she'd gone to a wedding full of skinny fashion types and felt like a "fat frump". It's expressive.

I would suggest you have completely misinterpreted what posters were saying.

There's so many misinterpretations in your post of what the replies were I don't know where to start.

Natasha I’m not specifically talking about the thread I mentioned- it comes up in every thread.

And frumpy is a useful word. I was frumpy at 20 and have improved considerably since then 🤡

You say What about accepting we are all getting older, rather than vicious denial? No one on that thread was denying their age. Quite the opposite.

This is one the last posts. And it's excellent advice.

I'm 59 with a 14 year old and I really really don't feel old at all. But realistically I also am very clearly not young! But the thing is, while that may be meaningful for things like pensions, or your chances of age related illnesses, I can't see how it relates to what clothes you might wear. I think you look at your body. What might suit it. What you like. And sort of match the two

The complaint is often that men don't get called frumpy, so it's sexist. But men get called dorky or daggy or whatever - it's no better for them! Lots of words only apply to women and no one seems to mind if they're positive.

Natasha the post you’re referencing is a perfect response to the OP. I think I wrote “hear hear” in response to this because actually she was one of the few to
actually answer the OP’s request (apart from @floisme who also did).

There were many other posters that didn’t . And actually all over MN style (the only forum I follow) you can see that frumpy etcetc is a trigger word like grannyish etc.

Yes, this is true! Maybe it’s about trigger words?

@MrsJinglyJones sorry I was trying to reply to you!

She was 58. From the title I expected her to be older than 75.
The advice in the pp is perfect.

There are some things you need to consider as you get older but a lot of it depends on the individual - body shape, skin texture, colouring etc

A teenager might get away with wearing a lycra cropped vest and leggings, but I don't think I'd look very nice in them.

Just what I was thinking. Most of us mentioned our age to show that we were in the same age group, and most of us were trying to say that age doesn't matter when it comes to what you wear and that she didn't have to change her style simply because she was getting older. There was very little vitriol that I could see - other than that which appears on any thread, whatever the subject.

I can well accept that I am getting older - it doesn't mean I am 'old'.

@givemeasunnyday

I can well accept that I am getting older - it doesn't mean I am 'old'.

I completely agree with you.

i mentioned the other thread because it was the one that finally spurred me into posting but there are actually many more threads on S& B which illustrate my point far better.

Usually they start with someone asking for advice because they feel frumpy or grannyish and then posters pile on to say they are X years old and look fantastic etc and/or else they do wonderful things ie they aren’t past it - good for them! It illustrates well that we no longer measure our age just by the number of years lived but by the attitudes held and an ongoing openness to life.

But the original poster’s request is often left behind when all they want is help to look contemporary / relevant.

I agree with what @DuchessOfSausage said above, as we get older we do need to be aware that somethings eg lycra crop tops might be wiser to leave to teenagers. Of course there will be exceptions to every rule because it also depends on how something is styled but not all of us are as adept as Lucinda Chambers!

Natasha and other posters are correct. That thread was about ageing. Not ageism. I haven't looked at it since last night, but there was nothing ageist there then. Consequently, nothing anti-ageist.

I don't think you've understood what ageism is (CF ageing) or how relentless it is on Mumsnet.

"Frumpy" and "grannyish" are most definitely used as ageist slurs on here.

That thread - assuming we're talking about the same one - (and I know this isn't a TAAT) has really troubled me. I'm not talking about any individual posts so, if you were on that thread, as I was, please let's not be defensive about it. It was the overall direction it took. I imagine it happened not out of malice but because so many people seemed to have just read the title and jumped in without reading any context, and therefore not realising how it was building up and how quiet the op had gone.

I will cheerfully trade words all day long with posters who use ageist slurs, and when they use words such as 'granny' or 'old lady' as insults. They're relentless on here sometimes, it pisses me off mightily. I've told myself many times that it's time to get off this board because of it. But the op of that thread wasn't doing that. As far as I could see, she was struggling with her style and with body changes which meant her clothes didn't look the same on her. If you haven't experienced menopausal body change yourself yet then hang on to your hats. I felt bad for her because she knew she had fallen into a rut, she was asking for help to get out of it and frankly she'd have probably been better off posting on AIBU.

And finally as a general thing, I don't understand the objections to age related words when they're used in a factual way. Age is a reality and we bloody well should talk about it.

You're not allowed to say frumpy, mutton dressed as lamb etc
Of course you are allowed to say 'mutton dressed as lamb', just as I am allowed to say that when you compare a woman to a piece of meat you are using a vile expression.

I don't have the same view on 'frumpy'

Lots of policing of language going on. Interesting.

For example?

This. It's rife in MN and MN don't seem to care.

Daily posts mentioning someone's age in a negative context in a way that wouldn't happen about their race or size when their age is irrelevant to the thread, just a signpost to pile in.

What do you mean by policing?

I suppose I just like words and imagery and I get a bit tired of everything being policed. Yes ageist slurs are bad. Yes using “granny” as a negative is ageist - although even grannies use it and as OP said, she just means someone loads older than her, or a stereotype of a granny. And I totally agree there is nothing you can’t or shouldn’t wear because of your age. And yes mutton dressed as lamb is comparing women to meat which is a feminist crime. But it’s a metaphor, young women don’t get called “lamb” - it’s just a way of saying two different ages and it refers to a specific thing, and older woman specifically trying to use clothes to look younger. Not that that’s bad. Each to their own. But it’s a look some people prefer to avoid and that’s why that specific image/phrase may be used. I don’t tend to use it, but if someone does I know what they mean.

Beefcake, meathead, meat and two veg, pork sword, I could go on. People are actually made of meat, and many images compare them to meat, including men, including in both derogatory and objectifying ways. They can be funny, self-deprecating or used ironically.

I do understand the issues - but the earnestness can get me down sometimes.

she just means someone loads older than her, or a stereotype of a granny.

What does a stereotype of a granny look like? It's a bit depressing that you think that's even a valid thing. Are you suggesting something like Mrs Brown of Mrs Brown's Boys? If so then frankly saying "I don't want to look like Mrs Brown of Mrs Brown's Boys" is a far clearer description of what a poster wants to avoid.

The policing of language comment (and subsequent question/observations) are for @pickledandpuzzled

Though if you can't see a problem with the description of a woman being synonymous with an older animal whose meat is known to be tough, then I'd say you're part of the problem.

Ageist (and often misogynistic by default) slurs on MN are the last man standing when it comes to acceptable (for the owners of the site) insults towards people. Racism and disablism thankfully is being ironed out on here as HQ delete. Ageism is left to stand.

But the original poster’s request is often left behind when all they want is help to look contemporary / relevant.

And how on earth is another poster supposed to assist with that aim without referencing their own experience of aging and how it affects, or doesn’t affect, their approach to getting dressed?

I’m completely happy with the age I am, which is older than the OP in the thread you’re talking about). Most of the comments on that thread seemed like honest reactions from people who are no longer young. I fail to see what benefit there is in starting another thread to tell them they are all wrong to feel as they do about the aging process.

One more post and then I'm done, at least until later, because quite honestly not matter how much we talk about this, nothing ever changes and I lose the energy.

I think one of the problems we have on this board is that ageism doesn't even have the wit or the creativity to think up its own slurs. Instead it borrows other perfectly normal, factual words, such as 'granny' or 'old' or 'middle aged' and turns them into insults.
It means those normal, factual words have become so loaded that sometimes - and I'm sure I've done it myself - they're jumped on unfairly. It also means that, when it's been used as an insult and you call it out, you're in danger of getting a faux outraged-innocent response.

I don't include 'mutton' because I don't consider that an ageist slur, I consider it to be pure misogyny, unless you think young women should be flattered to be compared to a piece of lamb in a butcher's window. I still wouldn't agree with banning it but I do agree with pointing out its origins.

But men get called meat-related terms as much as women do, or more.

re granny, I think the stereotype (appearance wise) is like Catherine Taste’s Nan.