Ageism Armageddon: but not as you might expect

[mm47]

I’ve absolutely had enough of MN posters’ so-called anti ageism. What about accepting we are all getting older, rather than vicious denial? If people genuinely felt at ease with getting older- possibly even grateful because - what is the alternative? - they could hear when someone just wanted some advice.

Surely an anti ageist attitude means to feel positive about age and ageing whilst not denying but accepting that growing older has challenges (in style and elsewhere). Style In anything has to do with facing the truth and finding the best outcome.

I’ve just read a thread where - to paraphrase - somebody aged 56 described herself as feeling like she dressed like a granny and asking for style advice. She was being honest about how she felt. But actually most of the thread was - instead of people offering positive, helpful and supportive advice - a complete rugger scrum of posters who wanted to give this poor woman a hard time and say age is irrelevant and I am this age (older than the OP) and I do this etcetc. Poor woman, I doubt she was expecting such vitriol, she just wanted an update on her uniform!

I’m 60. I’m not young. I kid myself I’m middle aged but I don’t want to live until I’m 120 so in other words… I’m getting on. There is nothing wrong with getting older but I enjoy getting dressed and trying to look good and included in this is a desire to show that I am aware of contemporary taste. I will pick and choose what suits me.

if it weren’t for MN rugger scrums I would definitely describe a lot of my style screw-ups (of which there are many!) as frumpy or grannyish or mutton dressed as lamb. The thing is, I might be 60 but granny (whoever she is in the style context) is always at least 70 years older than me….

i can’t be alone in thinking that even if I were a grandmother, grannyish doesn’t apply to me, it’s a description for a granny who existed in the 1950s.

Runs for the Anderson shelter….

Beefcake, meathead, meat and two veg, pork sword, I could go on. People are actually made of meat, and many images compare them to meat, including men, including in both derogatory and objectifying ways. They can be funny, self-deprecating or used ironically

Up to you but I've never called a good looking man "beefcake". I don't know what "meathead" means. The other examples are just awful.

People are not made of "meat"

Metaphors, slang and insults compare men, women and humanity in general to meat (fresh meat etc). So why is it misogynist? I’m a feminist and have been thinking about these things for decades so I don’t mean that in a faux-naive way, it’s just something I’m wondering about now. If women should not be described as mutton, should all meat-based descriptions of anyone not be used, or just those about women? If so why is that? Genuinely interested to know what you think Floisme, not in a confrontational way. as there’s a part of me that feels that’s saying women should be put on a pedestal/treated differently.

Yes, people are made of the exact same stuff as the animals that get eaten. In tech circles, “meat” used to me used to mean living people as opposed to technology. Meathead means a brainless bloke. No I don’t go around using these either but the point remains. Is it sexist if it happens to men as much or more?

You're a feminist but you're puzzled why women should not be described as pieces of meat?

Tbh , describing any human being as a piece of meat is repulsive.

Animals and humans are made of flesh and blood. Some dead animals become meat. Humans are not "meat".

Thanks @mm47 . Yes some women my age might look terrific in lycra crop top and cycling shorts, and quite a few young women look terrible in them.

I think as you get older, you can't carry off cheap-looking clothes as well, but I also think that cheap-looking clothes tend to be passable in summer but less so in the winter at any age. By cheap-looking, I mean flimsy material and badly cut and constructed.

Underwear and shoes can make or break an outfit. As we get older, some of us find that hormones and childbirth and life in general hasn't been too kind to figures, feet and posture. Exercise, diet (not necessarily weight loss) and lifestyle can help.

I think this applies to men as well as women. Does any man want to look like a grandad or the oldest swinger in town? I know quite a few men who have 'dad bods' - they ate for two when their partner/wife was expecting and breastfeeding, do less exercise, work at a desk etc and it shows. My single male friends are concerned about things like bad teeth, thinning or greying hair, paunches etc

Terms like 'mutton dressed as lamb', frumpy etc are misogynistic, and there are no male equivalents.

I don't wish to dress as Catherine Tate's Nan, but I don't wish to dress like Lauren either. There are plenty of role models (politicians, actors, musicians, academics, CEOs etc) who are 60-ish who look stylish and groomed without looking like they are trying to look 25 or 35.

There are clothing ranges and brands that look stylish on any age, and I think the OP in the thread this one references was trying to find a style more suited to her now that her lifestyle and body have changed.

I commented on the policing of language because that's what I saw. A lot of people telling other people that their choice of words is unacceptable.

I have an issue with '-ist' labels anyway- they don't clarify the issue with the behaviour, they just label it wrong. It's more helpful to be specific, as people have been with the 'comparing a woman to an old touch joint of meat'.

My understanding of the phrase is slightly different anyway- lamb and mutton need to be butchered and cooked differently. You use them in different ways.

I can see why people might dislike a food idiom used about people. I'm not sure- there are so many, and I'd see the objectification as the issue in most cases, rather than the food reference.

I've had to wear orthopaedic friendly shoes most of my adult life. As I age I find more of my friends are joining me.
You're going to need to break it down for me if 'granny shoe' is unacceptable. I'm always on the lookout for a fun looking granny shoe, the kind women often end up with after a lifetime of wearing gorgeous dress shoes.

I'm not sure why saying that is offensive, but I'm open to learning!

You're a feminist but you're puzzled why women should not be described as pieces of meat?

So it's wrong and misogynist, but you're not prepared to explore it and ask why you think that and explain? It's a common metaphor for men and for to people in general but it's only wrong for women. Do you know why you think that?

Yes, I am a feminist but also have critical thinking ability to think about why I think what I think and try to discern "received thinking" from what acrually makes sense.

It seems it's just something "everyone knows" that a meat-based metaphor for a woman is misogynist. Maybe it is, but if you're so certain, you could explain why.

I think this is all part of the struggle to break free from millennia of women being chattel really. For all those centuries, women's value was in being young, pretty and marriageable. Because we couldn't work we had no other value, and even though we have shown our value in so many other ways in the last century, it's a lot to break away from. So women collectively still overvalue looks and youthfulness even though we know know men don't stay young for ever either and are not our only hope of a better life.

I like to look good on my own terms, but I'm not worried DH will leave me for a younger model if I no longer look 25.

Because we couldn't work we had no other value

This is completely untrue. Women have worked, and not just as homemakers, for millennia. Yes women were shoved out of certain jobs on marriage and excluded from some professions (though some still did them especially if you take a worldwide view not just European). But thinking women didn't work for money before the 20th century is just very incorrect.

I do agree with your general point, that women are conditioned to value themselves through youth and beauty, and that is a feminist issue. But misrepresenting and erasing women's work throughout history is not ideal.

@pickledandpuzzled , I say granny shoe or granny boots for lace-ups, and they might look something like Leather Lace-Up Block Heel Ankle Boots | Jones Bootmaker | M&S (marksandspencer.com) or a flat version.

I find my feet seem to change shape during the day more now, so have to allow for that.

They are gorgeous! Sadly I can't cram my poor tired feet into them.

I look for a thick soft sole, generous toe box, and reasonable width. Crocs are great but my fashionista friends object .

I was once seriously offended by a friend asking to borrow my shoes to illustrate a point she was making about something hardworking, plain and serviceable. Sensible. Apparently she was going to provide the glamour.

As a DC my family used to get a brand called Ecco that DF called 'Cornish pasties'. They had a distinctive external seam around the toe box.

@pickledandpuzzled , your fashionista friends are clueless. Crocs are very trendy at the moment.

I'm not keen on that boot itself but they were popular in the 1980s with a tiered dress IIRC.

@pickledandpuzzled , they sound a bit like Clark's Nature Treks

Helena Bonham Carter springs to mind. To be fair my friends were scathing about my crocs a fair while back.

Yes!! And Clark's funny dream Oxfords! I'm pleased to see those... they may well meet my criteria!

These are my Ecco shoes @pickledandpuzzled Hoping to get the tan later this year.

Very nice. Things have changed!

I love shoes. Fly London often work for me thanks to the thick crepe wedge.

@pickledandpuzzled , yes, definitely. Love the way she dresses.

I never stopped wearing crocs, birkenstocks etc. Not out and about, but around the house/garden and on holiday etc. They're practical.

@TheLongGloriesOfTheWinterMoon , that's a granny boot. Nothing to do with little old ladies, but what a victorian girl might have worn. They're perfect.

Flo has already explained it. If you can't see for yourself what is wrong with describing a woman with reference to meat, I doubt there's anything anyone can say.

And just because there are some expressions used for men doesn't make "lamb dressed as mutton" acceptable.

Perhaps try not thinking of people generally as bits of meat?

If that's too difficult perhaps consider there's no equivalent of "mutton dressed as lamb" for men

No, Floisme hasn't. All you've both said or implied is that OBVIOUSLY it's not feminist to compare woman to a piece of meat and how could I possibly question that or fail to understand it and think I'm a feminist?

I think that since we use several meat metaphors for men and humans in general, I question why it is so terrible to use one for women but otherwise it's fine. Maybe there is a good explanation, which you can provide, and I'll listen and maybe have my mind changed. But I don't have to think something because OBVIOUSLY I must think it, no questions asked. I'm allowed to question and think things through.

Males sometimes get called medallion man, and there is also now the equivalent "ram dressed as lamb", but men can also be called "mutton dressed as lamb" - I remember Daniel Craig talking about whether he was.

It's not fine to denigrate men by using offensive, ageist terminology.

Nobody has said it is.

You are confusing and conflating ageism and misogyny. The expression "mutton dressed as lamb" is both. The expression "mutton dressed as ram" is ageist "only" as it refers to older men trying to look younger.