Ageism Armageddon: but not as you might expect

[mm47]

I’ve absolutely had enough of MN posters’ so-called anti ageism. What about accepting we are all getting older, rather than vicious denial? If people genuinely felt at ease with getting older- possibly even grateful because - what is the alternative? - they could hear when someone just wanted some advice.

Surely an anti ageist attitude means to feel positive about age and ageing whilst not denying but accepting that growing older has challenges (in style and elsewhere). Style In anything has to do with facing the truth and finding the best outcome.

I’ve just read a thread where - to paraphrase - somebody aged 56 described herself as feeling like she dressed like a granny and asking for style advice. She was being honest about how she felt. But actually most of the thread was - instead of people offering positive, helpful and supportive advice - a complete rugger scrum of posters who wanted to give this poor woman a hard time and say age is irrelevant and I am this age (older than the OP) and I do this etcetc. Poor woman, I doubt she was expecting such vitriol, she just wanted an update on her uniform!

I’m 60. I’m not young. I kid myself I’m middle aged but I don’t want to live until I’m 120 so in other words… I’m getting on. There is nothing wrong with getting older but I enjoy getting dressed and trying to look good and included in this is a desire to show that I am aware of contemporary taste. I will pick and choose what suits me.

if it weren’t for MN rugger scrums I would definitely describe a lot of my style screw-ups (of which there are many!) as frumpy or grannyish or mutton dressed as lamb. The thing is, I might be 60 but granny (whoever she is in the style context) is always at least 70 years older than me….

i can’t be alone in thinking that even if I were a grandmother, grannyish doesn’t apply to me, it’s a description for a granny who existed in the 1950s.

Runs for the Anderson shelter….

All you've both said or implied is that OBVIOUSLY it's not feminist to compare woman to a piece of meat and how could I possibly question that or fail to understand it and think I'm a feminist?

Seriously if you can't see why comparing women (or men) to pieces of meat is so obviously wrong, there's really nothing that can be said beyond that human beings are not pieces of meat to be slavered over.

And as TheLongGloriesOfTheWinterMoon has pointed out, no one apart from you has suggested that it's fine to denigrate men in the same way. No one has stood up for the offensive male equivalents which you seem to think makes calling women meat is ok.

Moving on … There does surely have to be some room for individual experience in how we interpret words.

I am a black woman. @Floisme, it must be amazing to feel that beyond 50 /60 no one’s looking at you - I have never had that luxury. The minute I leave the house all eyes are upon me, relentlessly. My life has involved both parts of Oxbridge, rural locations all over the UK, august City institutions and specialist institutions across the UK, Europe and the US. People observe me as closely now as they did when I was in my 20s, waiting for an opportunity to patronise, to block or to exploit. I inherited a love of beautiful clothes, so enjoy getting dressed anyway - but how I present myself makes a difference to how I’m received or treated.

And, because until about three minutes ago my existence was scarcely appreciated, I haven’t built up sufficient wealth to retire. I’m close to retirement age but very badly need not to be seen as an alien elderly person. So I Do Not Want people of my age presenting themselves as Older Ladies. They’re doing Actual Violence to my career prospects …

Point taken QuaterMiss. As explained on The Other Thread, I made it in the context of trying to reassure the op in question that changing your style isn't such a big deal, even when it leads to dodgy choices. But I can see what you're saying and I'll bear it in mind in the future.

Are you also saying that you think it's damaging when women my age (late 60s) describe themselves - I mean factually, not as a slur - as 'older' though? Because I'm not sure we're ever going to agree on that.

The thing is - there’s no risk in that self description when you’re safely retired. My peers and competitors are half my age - all the opportunities are geared towards youth. Every Single Time someone on MN describes themselves as an old, invisible granny who shouldn’t even be allowed near nice clothes (even for an awards ceremony where they’re nominated for a prize!) someone judging my work decides that I’m irrelevant, purely by virtue of age. It’s pants.

(Obviously it’s different if one is a Grande Dame, 70 years of success behind you and worshippers falling at your feet. That must be rather fun …)

I think grammar makes it problematic. ‘Older than’ - what? It’s saying the default, the correct age to be is not 60; that 60 is an embarrassing anomaly that needs apologising for. And as far as I’m aware it’s an Americanism, originally used because they were embarrassed by aging. I’m not embarrassed by my age - but I object to being constantly described via comparison.

Here, for what it’s worth, is my understanding of why the’Mutton dressed as lamb’ phrase is misogynistic.
Lamb is tender young meat. Mutton is tough older meat where the sheep is over a year old and is cheaper to buy. It is rarely sold at all these days. ‘Dressed’ is a 19th century term (possibly older) for the presentation of cooked food. Therefore Mutton dressed as Lamb is a fraud perpetrated on the diner. Ie presenting a less desirable food as a more expensive one.
Translating that to women, it refers to an older woman trying to present herself as still sexually attractive when she is obviously an old bag that no man would want to shag. (Apologies for the language).

"Every Single Time someone on MN describes themselves as an old, invisible granny who shouldn’t even be allowed near nice clothes (even for an awards ceremony where they’re nominated for a prize!) "

That's interesting, @QuaterMiss That's not something I've thought of, or observed.

I am older than I was, but still like nice clothes. And actually in many ways still like a very similar style to that I rocked when younger, it's just that changing shapes (both mine and fashion's) have had to be accommodated!

I think there's a freedom to being able to fly under the radar (wearing navy does it for me I think) but absolutely no need or expectation that we should!

My mum who has to classify as elderly can really dial up the glamour for a special occasion, and no one's ever suggested she should not.

That's interesting- I'd not seen it as fraudulent, simply as ineffective and inappropriate and not enhancing its subject!

Mutton curry or stew is fabulous. Lightly roast lamb is fabulous. I'd not swap either meat and actually think mutton is the more valuable meat as the flavour is so robust. Perhaps that's influenced my perception of the saying.

To be honest though I can only hear it in my mother's voice which is unfailingly judgemental and snobbish. That would be my reason smooth avoiding it!

Mutton curry can often be goat meat I think which adds further confusion to understanding the origins of this phrase.

@pickledandpuzzled , I think you misinterpret the saying.
Lambs are bred to be sold at under a year old. Mutton traditionally was sheep's meat and often much older than a year old, as the females and a few good ram lambs would be kept for breeding. Sheep over a year old doesn't have the same quality as 'lamb', and a lot of people look down on it. It's tougher and has a stronger taste.

"The 'dressing' of food was previously the term for the preparation of the item for cooking. The implication in 'dressed as lamb' is that the woman had prepared herself for a romantic encounter. 'Mutton dressed as lamb' was originally a disparaging description of a woman aiming to deceive men into believing she was younger than she really was - it being an economic necessity for a woman to marry while still of childbearing age.
Its current usage, while still disparaging, is of a woman who is apparently deluded and thinks herself attractive in clothes usually worn by much those much younger - the motivation having changed from notions of marriageability to those of self-esteem."
The saying 'Mutton dressed as lamb' - meaning and origin. (phrases.org.uk)

@pickledandpuzzled I’m very much aware that young men, nominated for national awards, will borrow or stretch their overdrafts to buy next season’s Gucci suit or something custom made on Savile Row.

Invisible granny, thus nominated and asking for styling advice on S&B, was being directed to M&S …

People have zero respect for mature women and don’t believe we should care how we look. We certainly aren’t supposed to spend money on our appearance.

@QuaterMiss I found your description of how ageism and racism affect your life very moving.
I’m not sure if I’ve put that clumsily.

Me too!

Awards ceremonies are well out of my experience.

I'd probably suggest hiring something now I know such places exist.

I do find 'mother of the bride' outfits desperately mumsy. Is that similar I wonder?

I've never worked anywhere that dress was particularly important. Certainly not award ceremony important.

I do remember desperately trying to look older as a trainee teacher, and shopping for shoes that would survive lots of kneeling on prickly carpets. Different worlds.

I accept I'm ageing but I don't want it to be assumed I'm frumpy, judgemental, struggling with new technology et cetera

Yikes I think I missed that thread

Yeah again I take your point. For me, the last few years of working life felt quite liberating as I'd reached pensionable age so there was really very little they could do to hurt me. (I still think they got their money's worth out of me but the fear had all gone.) I can see how it's harder when you don't have that freedom.

I did suggest the prizewinning self-described ‘granny’ should fling the £100 she was prepared to spend at Hurr, or one of the other hire places, in exchange for something at least halfway fashionable and splendid and befitting the occasion.

After that, I had to Remove Thread, because the John Lewis / Debenhams / whatever suggestions (kindly made, no doubt) were bringing on an apoplexy …

Agree with a pp that the earnestness is overkill. I’ve seen corrections issued on a perfume thread over a ‘Nana’s handbag’ description - we all know it’s a certain type of powdery/chanel-y/old-world, quiet glamour that’s being referenced (and that’s not, to many people’s noses - mine included - an insult).

Fashion is tribal and age is a tribe - of course teenagers don’t want to dress like their parents and I don’t want to dress like mine.

My 80 year old mum describes things as old-lady ish as an insult. She’s well aware she’s an old lady and she certainly doesn’t mean ‘no old lady can look fabulous’, it’s just a shorthand we all understand.

Mum/middle-aged/granny, these are neutral terms dictated by the context. If someone with enough interest to post on a style and fashion board was after a Granny-chic look, we’d all know they weren’t after a Nora Battye look, would they be corrected for implying grannies can’t look shit? It goes both ways.

Maybe the reason I don't see 'granny' as apologetic when used in that kind of context is because all my friends who are grannies are proud as punch about it and never stop going on about how great it is. (Yes I am jealous )

Soz cross post, that was in reference to posters using granny apologetically.

But yes I agree with Gridhopper in that I see them as essentially neutral terms that describe your life stage. Any insult, when it's there, is in the context which is what gives rise to misunderstandings. My own rule of thumb is that if you can replace it with 'ugly' and/or prefix it with 'Ewww' then it's not intended to be neutral.

I turned pensionable age in February, just landed a great new job which I start next month and am currently very happily engaged in planning to spend a great deal of my money on a stylish and fashionable work wardrobe having been pretty much permanently working from home since March 2019. I’m so excited!

im not sure whether it’s just invisible grannies who get directed to M&S, I assume most people on here are younger than me and am often shocked at some of the suggestions for women two decades younger than me.

Except "smells like Nana's handbag" was (if it's the same thread) intended to be insulting. It was a comment made by a poster's husband about some cheap dupe perfume that was awful.

As Flo said replace "Nana" with "ewww"

@NatashaDancing well yes, to that person it was an insult, to me it’s an asset - but the smell that’s being described is the same. We all like different things.

Frumpy is obvs not neutral, it has a negative meaning, but it’s up to us what value we place on the meaning. Who gives a toss if someone looks frumpy, there’s no need for the wearer or anyone else to care, and we all have different opinions about what is or isn’t frumpy. But if we went down that route none of us would be on this board!

if someone made a post saying: ‘I really love the frumpy look, what should I wear?’ it would be ageist/misogynistic to reply along the lines of: ‘don’t do this, you should be wanting to look young and hot’. But I can’t see that using the term is indicative of anything a desire to communicate a meaning.

DM thinks it's obligatory to look as good as you can. All flaws must be hidden as far as possible.

You need to look as young, slim and beautiful as you can.

She's enraged and disgusted by people who don't strive to that end. They are fat slobs, unkempt and so on.
There are a couple of well know celebrities who don't comply and she finds them outrageous in a bad way.

She's shocked by the possibility someone may have different priorities from her, and actually know their knees are unattractive but shows them anyway!!

There's something about the certainty of people's opinions that I find intrinsically untrustworthy. There's no absolute about dress, style, fashion. No matter how much confidence you have in your pronouncements.

but the smell that’s being described is the same.

I really don't think that poster's husband had the smell you are describing in mind. It was meant to be insulting. And, tbh, I don't know "what Nana's handbag" smells like.

The other ageist comment that really irriates me is when a poster is describing behaviour that's sexist, racist, homophobic, narrow -minded or generally egregiously bonkers in a bad way someone will ask if the person being complained about is "old" ; or, if the age is known, will say the behaviour is because the person is "old".

No it isn't. It's because the person being complained of is just not a nice person and they come in all ages.

@NatashaDancing to be fair the perfume in question was rank af and did not deserve the Nana accolade!